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25nlz - 180bb pot line check

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03-19-2016 , 01:42 AM

#26

xMJK

adept

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 744

Quote:

Originally Posted by cruisecontrol204

i didn't see fast in the op. its not assuming vill plays perfectly as opposed to thin-borderline river spot(s) when deepish. we can all think of villains that would easily warrant hero to shove or skeptically check. like blades said think from villains pov

nlz = no limit zoom

Really don't think it's even thin vs most of the player pool.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bladesman87

Are regs calling off 100bb's otr

Vs. someone competent looking I think it's going to be thin at best and regs are likely to over-fold here.

Depends, good regs no, fish regs yes I'd say more then half of the regs have either passive/calling mistakes or 3b/agro/spew mistakes.

Agree vs someone competent we should x/b river

Quote

03-19-2016 , 04:42 AM

#27

MartimC

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 6,626

xb river

Quote

03-19-2016 , 05:15 AM

#28

MartimC

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 6,626

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bladesman87

Maybe they get here with AxKc

having the Kc blocker makes it even a worse call

there are some spots where you wanna block the nuts to call, in these kind of spots you don't want to block his bluffs

Quote

03-19-2016 , 06:13 AM

#29

Bladesman87

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Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 14,543

That's a good point. I was just thinking of strong hands he gets to river with (that we beat) since I think a lot of 25nlz regs are going to be fairly weak-tight on that turn.

Quote

03-19-2016 , 07:56 AM

#30

xMJK

adept

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 744

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartimC

xb river

I would literally monkey tilt if i x/b river and villain show's down AJ-AK no club.

Kind of having trouble with this, mite be just that my deep stacked knowledge isn't great.

100bb's would you ship?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartimC

having the Kc blocker makes it even a worse call

there are some spots where you wanna block the nuts to call, in these kind of spots you don't want to block his bluffs

Because having the Kc blocks a load of KQ/KJos combos?

Quote

03-19-2016 , 10:50 AM

#31

lvr

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 2,743

this is hella bad on zoom nobody is ever calling with worse here

Quote

03-19-2016 , 11:23 AM

#32

Bladesman87

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Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 14,543

If villain gets to river with AJ/AQ that doesn't mean he's calling a full buy-in on the river with it.

Quote

03-19-2016 , 11:59 AM

#33

xMJK

adept

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 744

Quote:

Originally Posted by lvr

this is hella bad on zoom nobody is ever calling with worse here

Not true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bladesman87

If villain gets to river with AJ/AQ that doesn't mean he's calling a full buy-in on the river with it.

But it also means villain has 44 combos we beat and only 12 combos we lose to, so if he's only calling w/ AA + flushes villain folds river 78% of the time which i just don't think is true for the majority of the zoom pool.

I guess vs solid regs we are making a +ev bluff with the best hand, vs the rest of the pool we are making a +ev value shove.

Quote

03-19-2016 , 01:01 PM

#34

lvr

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 2,743

Do you understand how many hands you would have to shove the river with for him to call it off here with AK?

it would be a huge error for him to call with ak

lets not even start with top pair hands lol

Quote

03-19-2016 , 01:07 PM

#35

Bladesman87

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Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 14,543

That. And why can't a weak tight zoom reg over fold to a ridic strong line?

Quote

03-19-2016 , 01:14 PM

#36

xMJK

adept

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 744

Quote:

Originally Posted by lvr

All Sets, flushes and KQ/KJ w/ club for villain to make a slightly +ev call, 27 combos to be exact.

I highly doubt the majority of the zoom pool has combinatorics down packed let alone able to compute/apply that information live.

Quote

03-19-2016 , 01:37 PM

#37

xMJK

adept

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 744

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bladesman87

That. And why can't a weak tight zoom reg over fold to a ridic strong line?

I agree reg's can be over folding in this spot, i just disagree that the majority of players are playing the river perfectly.

But i guess that's what we are disagreeing on, what % of the pool calls AK and what % folds.

Hypothetically if 50% of the pool calls w/ AK and 50% fold, do we simply half the number of combos villain calls with otr?

Last edited by xMJK; 03-19-2016 at 01:43 PM.

Quote

03-19-2016 , 03:25 PM

#38

FreddyTheFish

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 570

Lets put this hand other way. You are villain with 55. Would you call a river 100bb shove?

Quote

03-19-2016 , 10:22 PM

#39

xMJK

adept

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 744

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreddyTheFish

Lets put this hand other way. You are villain with 55. Would you call a river 100bb shove?

I think it's bad to play poker against yourself, what i do and what a large percentage of the zoom pool do are two very different things.

Anyway I've put up a decent argument for shoving river, no one seems to want to go deeper then their 2 cents, it's hard to argue about what % of a player pool does x in these spots without having a ridiculous sample.

Thanks for all the posts & opinions, always food for thought

/thread

Quote

03-19-2016 , 11:52 PM

#40

lvr

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 2,743

Quote:

Originally Posted by xMJK

you are literally pulling bluff combos out of your ass for your argument

Are you raising KJ/KQ with a S in it OTF now?

this is getting ridiculous now

Quote

03-20-2016 , 01:05 AM

#41

xMJK

adept

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 744

Quote:

Originally Posted by lvr

you are literally pulling bluff combos out of your ass for your argument

Are you raising KJ/KQ with a S in it OTF now?

this is getting ridiculous now

Wot?

When did i say I'd be raising QKos at all? you asked me a hypothetical question about the ratio of bluff/value i would need for villain to make a +ev river call.

You brought this up, it has nothing to do with my argument for shoving river.
If you disagree with the hands i selected that i thought would work reasonably well in a bluff range, try explaining why so we can actually learn something?

Otherwise don't bother posting because at the moment your argument sounds like this,"no one calls that, do you understand this, this is ridiculous now".

Quote

03-20-2016 , 03:15 AM

#42

z0mgtiltz

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 10,947

Call flop
If he ever calls your flop raise there is a very real chance that he has top set [2% 3bettor]

Quote

03-20-2016 , 04:16 AM

#43

Brokenstars

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 16,323

Quote:

Originally Posted by z0mgtiltz

Call flop
If he ever calls your flop raise there is a very real chance that he has top set [2% 3bettor]

100 hand sample and sb vs btn?

In a 100 hand sample I often get 2-3% 3b when I'm more like 7-10%, depending on villains @ table.

I'm not suggesting calling flop is not good though.

Quote

03-20-2016 , 05:46 AM

#44

Just A Coin

stranger

Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 9

people at 25nl are spastic, I like your play. Look at this hand ffs

$0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

UTG: $41.74 (167 bb)
MP: $39.65 (158.6 bb)
CO: $21.41 (85.6 bb)
Hero (BTN): $56.29 (225.2 bb)
SB: $67.77 (271.1 bb)
BB: $34.31 (137.2 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with T