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25NL - really struggle to know the right play in this situation, can you help? 2 Examples 25NL - really struggle to know the right play in this situation, can you help? 2 Examples

03-02-2010 , 09:59 PM
Here villian is 53/0 over 17 hands.

My first question is......

1. When people encounter these 53/0 type players we say they are loose passive. If they start betting into you or call big bets what do people tend to assume? What do you all think when you meet a villian like this, perhaps that these players only tend to call with the goods?

2. I absolutely hate opponents that min-raise me. I find it extremely difficult to know what this means especially on the flop like example 1 below? My first thought is that this is a weak bet and I should raise again but as the villian is 53/0 the other half of my brain tells me that as he is so loose passive he probably doesnt know how to bet when he has a made hand and so this could well be strength. Furthermore how am I going to proceed if a blank hits the turn and he bets again. I am not going to want to call but surely if I dont want to call a turn bet then my action on the flop vs the min raise should be to fold. However I then think I don't wanna start folding to min raises as I dont want opponents to think they can just min raise me off any hand.

3. Thoughts on the hand, personally I though I played well PF and that was about it!

Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BB: $25.70
UTG: $21.90
UTG+1: $4.90
UTG+2: $27.15
MP1: $25.85
MP2: $26.80
CO: $25.00
BTN: $5.00
Hero (SB): $25.00

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is SB with J J
UTG calls $0.25, 6 folds, Hero raises to $1.50, 1 fold, UTG calls $1.25

Flop: ($3.25) 2 Q 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $2.25, UTG raises to $4.50, Hero calls $2.25

Turn: ($12.25) 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $2.75, Hero raises to $19 all in, UTG calls $13.15 all in

River: ($44.05) 3 (2 players - 2 are all in)



Here the villian is 92/0 over 12 hands.

Is shoving the turn standard after he has called the flop bet. I feel that yes it is as his range is so wide?


Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 7 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

CO: $41.00
Hero (BTN): $53.75
SB: $7.60
BB: $5.00
UTG: $29.10
UTG+1: $4.90
MP: $34.20

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BTN with T T
4 folds, Hero raises to $0.75, SB calls $0.65, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.75) 4 7 K (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.50, SB calls $1.50

Turn: ($4.75) 8 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $7.25, SB calls $5.35 all in

River: ($15.45) A (2 players - 1 is all in)
25NL - really struggle to know the right play in this situation, can you help? 2 Examples Quote
03-02-2010 , 10:09 PM
Check/raising on the turn on hand 1 is just spew.
25NL - really struggle to know the right play in this situation, can you help? 2 Examples Quote
03-02-2010 , 11:41 PM
Well, I personally think that seeing the villain only play 12-17 hands is a VERY small sample to think if he's a certain type of player (he could have just been watching tv or something, playing limping random hands or etc) so i think it's hard to put him on an accurate range (tell me if i'm wrong here).

For hand number 1, if you say or think he's passive, weak, then i would take the raise for what it is. he has a hand he likes. if he has a hand he likes, he's not folding. Your JJ beats a pair of 9s, 2s, and maybe if he had pp under Jacks, but since he's passive, would he be aggressive with any lesser holdings that you beat? the call on the flop is fine, but i don't think a turn check raise was good. He bet so little you might have thought you could steal, but again, if he likes his hand, he aint folding so your fold equity is practically 0. I would have just called his small bet and see the river as played.

For hand number 2, I again think that you were trying to steal, but your opponent is essentially committed because of his stack size. I think checking the turn is better because of his stack?

But i think i would've turn shoved if i had a higher sample size to base his range off of.
25NL - really struggle to know the right play in this situation, can you help? 2 Examples Quote
03-03-2010 , 06:07 AM
In both of these examples there at two possible flush draws on the turn so I want to bet to charge the draws.

Can anyone shed any light on the min raise issue?
25NL - really struggle to know the right play in this situation, can you help? 2 Examples Quote
03-03-2010 , 06:20 AM
In my opinion anyone who is min betting has the good they want to build the pot but not push you put, they also could have a good hand and not understand betting / raising but know they have to bet or raise so they just do the min its very very rare you see someone not have at least a good hand when min raising more likely the nuts or clsoe to it.
25NL - really struggle to know the right play in this situation, can you help? 2 Examples Quote
03-03-2010 , 06:48 AM
both these hand are played terribly.

if your turn bet/shove is a bluff - then you need to learn on what boards, in what situations and vs. what opponents to bluff. none of those fit the bill

if your turn bet/shove is for value, then you really need to ask yourself what worse hands call you.
25NL - really struggle to know the right play in this situation, can you help? 2 Examples Quote
03-03-2010 , 11:20 AM
FOld hand 1 they are loooose passive so when he min raises just snap fold
hand 2 is fine there is enough draws and 7x in his range
25NL - really struggle to know the right play in this situation, can you help? 2 Examples Quote
03-03-2010 , 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crafty Cockney
Here villian is 53/0 over 17 hands.

My first question is......

1. When people encounter these 53/0 type players we say they are loose passive. If they start betting into you or call big bets what do people tend to assume? What do you all think when you meet a villian like this, perhaps that these players only tend to call with the goods?

When they call big bets, it simply means that they've got somthing. Yeah they'll slowplay big hands, but more often they'll be overplaying top pair, 2nd pair, any draw, even A high. They will call you down so light that you should usually be treating TPGK as the nuts. When they bet it's a different story. Because they are generally passive, when they bet they will have the goods, so you will need a stronger hand to continue. Do remember though that a strong hand to them may be as weak as top pair any kicker, you will have to analyse the board texture and their betsizes etc, to work out your options.

2. I absolutely hate opponents that min-raise me. I find it extremely difficult to know what this means especially on the flop like example 1 below? My first thought is that this is a weak bet and I should raise again but as the villian is 53/0 the other half of my brain tells me that as he is so loose passive he probably doesnt know how to bet when he has a made hand and so this could well be strength. Furthermore how am I going to proceed if a blank hits the turn and he bets again. I am not going to want to call but surely if I dont want to call a turn bet then my action on the flop vs the min raise should be to fold. However I then think I don't wanna start folding to min raises as I dont want opponents to think they can just min raise me off any hand.

As above, once they start raising, they usually have it. Sometimes it will be a bluff/semibluff/weak hand "finding out where he's at", but usually it isn't this often enough, and the correct play is to probably just fold. Also, before you make the call just have a think about what your plan for the next street will be, and if you can't formulate a decent plan for all outcomes, then it may be best to just fold.

Also, with regards to your last sentence, these guys that are minraising you will generally not be sticking around long enough to make a "game plan" against you and start abusing you by relentlessly minraising. They'll either leave, or get busted, way before they develop any kind of meta-game strategy, even if they were capable of that in the first place.


3. Thoughts on the hand, personally I though I played well PF and that was about it!

What greg said.

Hand 1 is probably a fold. You're OOP, probably facing another bet on the turn and don't have a strong enough hand. It'll feel good occasionally to snap off a bluff by doing this, but you won't do that often enough to make up for all the times he's got 2x/Qx. I don't think he's minraising FDs very often here either.

Hand 2 is fine, draws, 7x and even other random crap will probably call. It still amazes me when people call down with AT or 55 here, but it does happen.

.
25NL - really struggle to know the right play in this situation, can you help? 2 Examples Quote
03-03-2010 , 11:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul328
Well, I personally think that seeing the villain only play 12-17 hands is a VERY small sample to think if he's a certain type of player (he could have just been watching tv or something, playing limping random hands or etc) so i think it's hard to put him on an accurate range (tell me if i'm wrong here).
You are right in regards to putting him on an accurate range, but if somebody has played over half their hands, even in such a small sample (and all but one hand in the second example), then I think we can pretty confidently label them a loose-passive fish. Against these players we don't need an accurate range, we just need to know that they will be playing a wide range and consequently can value-bet them much wider than the standard Villain.
25NL - really struggle to know the right play in this situation, can you help? 2 Examples Quote
03-04-2010 , 02:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerRon247
You are right in regards to putting him on an accurate range, but if somebody has played over half their hands, even in such a small sample (and all but one hand in the second example), then I think we can pretty confidently label them a loose-passive fish. Against these players we don't need an accurate range, we just need to know that they will be playing a wide range and consequently can value-bet them much wider than the standard Villain.
hmmm... maybe I'm playing to cautiously.... i have a lot to learn.. but for hand 2, would it have been better if OP bet a different amount?
25NL - really struggle to know the right play in this situation, can you help? 2 Examples Quote
03-04-2010 , 03:17 AM
The biggest problem I see with players facing the loose passive is boiled down to one thing: too much c-betting. Many players have a problem considering they can check a flop.

Wait for good spots, the player is playing all sorts of things, your patience is going to get paid off. You have to quit trying to go for razor thin value at micro poker. It's all about building the roll and recognizing the situations you can do so. But right now, take your check button out to dinner. Get to know that check button.

Build the roll now, work on becoming a student of Tom Dwan later.

Hand one, check/call flop. And then decide to value bet the turn or wait for better spot. Hand 2 is trivial b/c villain is so shallow. Hard to play the hand wrong here.
25NL - really struggle to know the right play in this situation, can you help? 2 Examples Quote

      
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