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Old 04-07-2012, 07:16 PM   #1
happyeaster
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Heart 25NL - I went deep but I pulled out

hi guys,

villain is 26/18 7% 3bet 1.33 AF over 38 hands.


PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($14.89)
Hero (SB) ($141.15)
BB ($74.54)
UTG ($25)
MP ($26.46)
CO ($28.25)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A, K
4 folds, Hero bets $0.75, BB raises to $2.50, Hero calls $1.75

Flop: ($5) K, 2, A (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $4.50, Hero calls $4.50

Turn: ($14) 10 (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $13, Hero calls $13

River: ($40) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $33, Hero folds

Total pot: $40 | Rake: $1.80

Reasons for folding after tanking:

-low AF factor coupled with pot pot pot line
-unlikley he 3bet 22 (especially this deep) putting his range on missed FD or AA/KK
-when i called 2 streets, I think he would give up a bluff
-we beat nothing.


So even though we have blockers, I think folding is only option.

Thoughts guys?

I thought about c/r flop but I decided against it to keep his bluffs in.
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Old 04-07-2012, 07:30 PM   #2
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Re: 25NL - I went deep but I pulled out

c/r flop, you rep like 10,000,000 draws and people don't like folding when in his eyes your only value combo is 22.
Otr I don't even know, he needs one bluff/ worse value combo for it to be a call I think, if we're assuming we only lose to AA or KK which I think is fair, (given betsizing)
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Old 04-07-2012, 07:31 PM   #3
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Re: 25NL - I went deep but I pulled out

I might be wrong but I think even if he only bets KK+, AK calling is still better than folding...

other than that I am not really experienced playing this deep...so no idea what I wouldve done in this hand....
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Old 04-07-2012, 07:33 PM   #4
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Re: 25NL - I went deep but I pulled out

fold pre rofl

and quit poker
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Old 04-07-2012, 07:39 PM   #5
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Re: 25NL - I went deep but I pulled out

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaiseDaAce View Post
I might be wrong but I think even if he only bets KK+, AK calling is still better than folding...

other than that I am not really experienced playing this deep...so no idea what I wouldve done in this hand....
If he only bets KK+ why should we call at all ?
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Old 04-07-2012, 07:42 PM   #6
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Re: 25NL - I went deep but I pulled out

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Originally Posted by wbuster View Post
fold pre rofl

and quit poker
If you have nothing constructive to say, why bother posting in this thread at all?

In fact, with that attitude why are you even in the strat forum?
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Old 04-07-2012, 07:49 PM   #7
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Re: 25NL - I went deep but I pulled out

Quote:
Originally Posted by happyeaster View Post
If he only bets KK+ why should we call at all ?
KK+,AK I said
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Old 04-07-2012, 07:50 PM   #8
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Re: 25NL - I went deep but I pulled out

first of all, i prefer to 4bet/call this hand, especially since we ll be off position, and we ll hit flop 1/3 times...

anyway, as played

flop
Quote:
I thought about c/r flop but I decided against it to keep his bluffs in.
its cool, since he would shove there 2combs of aa,kk, plus ak for a split
not sure what he would do with aj/aq there, so i think its better to keep his value range there as well

turn
bad card for us, if he 3bet pf and cbetted with TT/qj..
but i dont think if he is cbetting for bluff in this kind of way on flop [4.5 to 5.0], and when he hits his hand, he doesnt change sizing... so his hand in my opinion stays the same [its either bluff/monster]

but he still can continue with any sort of FD from flop, or with the one he got on turn, also AQ/AJ fires again I think, as well as AT [still think that with only 40hands on him, his agrression can be way more higher especially in sb vs bb situation] so call is fine there

river
well
Quote:
-low AF factor coupled with pot pot pot line
sample is not that big, i would not pay so big attention to it
-unlikley he 3bet 22 (especially this deep) putting his range on missed FD or AA/KK
-when i called 2 streets, I think he would give up a bluff
your wrong here, most ppl knows perfectly that AA/KK should stackoff preflop, as well as AK in 6max format SBvsBB situation. so probably he could put you on draw/ace/weakhand
-we beat nothing.
give me one value hand that is playing THAT BIG, especially on flop/turn and wants to be called... if u would have there AA/KK what kind of sizing on flop/turn would you use?
like i said, i would stackoff this preflop
i think its a call there.. because he looks so bluffy there, if I will see aa/kk its a cooler for me.. i would make a note on him that he doesnt balance his sizing when he has big hand
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Old 04-07-2012, 07:52 PM   #9
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Re: 25NL - I went deep but I pulled out

effective stacks=300BB lol for stacking off preflop
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Old 04-07-2012, 07:55 PM   #10
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Re: 25NL - I went deep but I pulled out

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Originally Posted by RaiseDaAce View Post
effective stacks=300BB lol for stacking off preflop
alright, you right, didnt notice that
4bet/fold is better then preflop

as played i m not changing my mind on postflop

also, I would recommend you to not keep this stacks on zoom there, you ll run into a lot of tough spots
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Old 04-07-2012, 08:26 PM   #11
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Re: 25NL - I went deep but I pulled out

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Originally Posted by ra1sy View Post
alright, you right, didnt notice that
4bet/fold is better then preflop

as played i m not changing my mind on postflop

also, I would recommend you to not keep this stacks on zoom there, you ll run into a lot of tough spots
Don't 4bet fold this ever please.
And noone else at this stake is gunna be a deepstack expert better, so as long as we can adjust better than them then it's fine.

Also I still think c/r flop is by far best option without reads he's barrely.
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Old 04-07-2012, 08:44 PM   #12
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Re: 25NL - I went deep but I pulled out

ra1sy,

Yep turn analysis same as mine -

1) unlikely he would cbet TT with his low AF (even with low sample size) on a board like this and make it almost pot sized
2) turn bet indicates monster


I agree 4betting pre has its merits but he is an (almost) unknown and we're deep so I think 3bet/4bet are both OK.

In hindsight I think q6suited was correct in saying that c/raising is the best option. Also note that we have little info on villain and in a BvB situation i have certainly seen opponents raise with much worse than premiums so he could be on a draw anyway.

Also I kept stacks deep to (hopefully?) increase my edge at these games.

And I think the general consensus is a call on the river which I now agree with.
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Old 04-07-2012, 09:14 PM   #13
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Re: 25NL - I went deep but I pulled out

dude no offence but you make so many contridicting statements... firstly i think folding preflop can be alright. 7% 3 bet over 38 sample is like 1 or 2 3bets and indicates nothing. most of these guys are going to be bad passives who only 3 bet the nuts. his range is most likely JJs-AAs and AK. Against that range calling oop is no good even this deep unless you have a huge post flop edge which im guessing you dont due to minimal reads on our opponet.... you could 4 bet but i think i like folding more....
100bbs with more reads i would 4 bet for sure 300 with no reads i think folding is best
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Old 04-07-2012, 09:21 PM   #14
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Re: 25NL - I went deep but I pulled out

fold pf to 3bet in bvb situation?

Surely if we're deep, we shud be even more inclined to call with speculative/marginal hands?
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Old 04-07-2012, 09:21 PM   #15
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Re: 25NL - I went deep but I pulled out

also two important things from reading your post which i dont think you understand.... if he has a low AF his a passive guy and passive guys only raise the nuts preflop as well as post flop... if on the other hand he is agro and 3 bets with an agro range preflop then OTF he will be cbeting his whole range on that board because you will generally play fit and fold on a AKxss.
callling oop versus the agro guy is probs ok with AK because you crush him equity wise against the passive guy though its terrrible
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Old 04-07-2012, 09:24 PM   #16
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Re: 25NL - I went deep but I pulled out

Quote:
Originally Posted by happyeaster View Post
fold pf to 3bet in bvb situation?

Surely if we're deep, we shud be even more inclined to call with speculative/marginal hands?
wats your plan post flop when you do call oop... c/r ton of flops??
you didnt even c/r the AK for top two seems that you will be c/r alot of junk. against a depolarised range that makes TP alot it is not going to be a good idea assuming our opponet has half a brain.....
im assuming they would be depolarised because thats what any reg would do agaainst someone who calls 3 bets oop
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Old 04-07-2012, 09:31 PM   #17
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Re: 25NL - I went deep but I pulled out

I was under the impression that AF only calculates postflop action. If this isn't the case, i'd be happy to be corrected. Even though this guy is unknown, many regs can play a robotic game pre even with relatively high 3bet % and passive post.

You state that against an aggro player it's OK to call and against passive fold. You also say that the sample size is too small to to give us any info. So surely in a vacuum in BVB, it's better to call? Also 25nl may be micros but in zoom MOST are regs. Most may even be bad regs but that doesn't mean they ONLY 3bet with JJ+.

Of course, I am not saying that this particular player doesn't fit your description of fish passive but we can't assume he isn't either.
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Old 04-07-2012, 09:33 PM   #18
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Re: 25NL - I went deep but I pulled out

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Originally Posted by anaconda disease View Post
wats your plan post flop when you do call oop... c/r ton of flops??
you didnt even c/r the AK for top two seems that you will be c/r alot of junk. against a depolarised range that makes TP alot it is not going to be a good idea assuming our opponet has half a brain.....
im assuming they would be depolarised because thats what any reg would do agaainst someone who calls 3 bets oop
I didn't c/r flop because what would be the reason? What would he call me with? If he, as you say has JJ+ then he would only call with hands that beat me and if he 3bet with a wider range than surely I need to keep his weaker hands in.
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Old 04-07-2012, 09:46 PM   #19
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Re: 25NL - I went deep but I pulled out

offcourse AF relates to only post flop play lol.... if someone plays passively post flop there not a reg there a tight passive guy who plays fairly fit and fold.. you will pretty much never find a 3 bet monkey who plays super fit and fold post flop.. assuming that most 25nl zoom guys are regs is ridiculous just because the game speed is different doesnt change the way people think about poker... also you say in a vacuum its ok to call 3 bet oop cause there are so many regs and not that many fish.... wrong most regs dont even 3 bet that much... only 5% of the 50nl and below population probably is winning off you by you folding AK here the rest are winning when you call...
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Old 04-07-2012, 09:48 PM   #20
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Re: 25NL - I went deep but I pulled out

Go play 25nl zoom and tell me most of the players aren't regs.
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Old 04-07-2012, 09:57 PM   #21
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Re: 25NL - I went deep but I pulled out

i wrote a post yesterday about everyone throwing around the term REG so lightly... reality is most these guys are not REGs there more or less a version of a bad passive or bad agressive player.... i have played zoom but i dont really like it cause i play without a HUD these days and its really hard to keep track of nits when the player pool is so big....
before you played zoom what stake did you play???
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Old 04-07-2012, 10:02 PM   #22
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Re: 25NL - I went deep but I pulled out

You can't seriously advocate folding AK to a 3-bet bvb. Trying to read too much into his AF after 38 hands is getting silly. It's not like it's ridiculously low and his 26/18 stats combined with a 300bb don't offer us any reason to think he's anything but competent.

I would be calling this river given that we've played our hand quite passively post-flop
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Old 04-07-2012, 10:07 PM   #23
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Re: 25NL - I went deep but I pulled out

I read that thread and in it it was agreed upon that REGs = regulars. Most of the zoom 25nl pool contain people who do play on a regular basis with 20/17ish stats.

50nl before zoom
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Old 04-07-2012, 10:10 PM   #24
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Re: 25NL - I went deep but I pulled out

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Originally Posted by Bladesman87 View Post
You can't seriously advocate folding AK to a 3-bet bvb. Trying to read too much into his AF after 38 hands is getting silly. It's not like it's ridiculously low and his 26/18 stats combined with a 300bb don't offer us any reason to think he's anything but competent.

I would be calling this river given that we've played our hand quite passively post-flop
This exactly.

Now, I may not be the best player in the world but there are some basics I do know - like not folding AKo bvb withot a soul read.
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Old 04-07-2012, 10:13 PM   #25
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Re: 25NL - I went deep but I pulled out

i stand by what i said i think folding is fine.... there passive until proven otherwise at the micros.....
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