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25 NL QQ 3bet pot IP vs reg. 25 NL QQ 3bet pot IP vs reg.

03-15-2010 , 07:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uppercut
I rarely ever 4-bet Aces against a reg anymore. Its the only way to get their stacks.
well not 4betting AA is one way to deal with that.

Or you could just start 4bet bluffing more...
25 NL QQ 3bet pot IP vs reg. Quote
03-15-2010 , 07:47 PM
I think the bigger point is that if we can't auto-stack off with QQ in this spot then we probably shouldn't have 3-bet preflop. You are putting yourself to a spot where you have an SPR of 4.5-ish yet you can't commit with the hand you are hoping to flop (an overpair). If you don't feel comfortable committing here then just flat pre. If you 3-bet this pre I think you stack off on this flop w/o a problem.

Now, if the flop was JTx I think can find a fold.
25 NL QQ 3bet pot IP vs reg. Quote
03-15-2010 , 07:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexB182
well not 4betting AA is one way to deal with that.

Or you could just start 4bet bluffing more...
Or both.
25 NL QQ 3bet pot IP vs reg. Quote
03-15-2010 , 08:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by threads13
Or both.
well if we start 4bet bluffing more then flatting 3bets with AA becomes less attractive to me in all but the best spots tbh. No?
25 NL QQ 3bet pot IP vs reg. Quote
03-15-2010 , 08:04 PM
Kwangbin

Your decision was to fold my quesitons is why?

Did you expect to see AcKc or AA,KK is this the reason you folded

I cannot put 99 in his range he isnt shoving the nuts, and I cant see a nit like this calling a three bet with A7s or K7s but I could be wrong

My feeling is he is protecting an overpair
25 NL QQ 3bet pot IP vs reg. Quote
03-15-2010 , 08:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexB182
well if we start 4bet bluffing more then flatting 3bets with AA becomes less attractive to me in all but the best spots tbh. No?
As long as we don't 4-bet bluff like a crazy person it won't matter much that we are out of balance. It's not like he's going to start 5-bet shove bluffing.

Said another away, assuming he won't adjust properly (and most TAGs won't) then the proper adjustment to make against a guy who is 3-bet/folding a lot is to set up our 4-betting range to consist of hands that gain EV by making him fold. AA and KK don't fit into that category so there's not much of a reason to 4-bet them.
25 NL QQ 3bet pot IP vs reg. Quote
03-15-2010 , 08:38 PM
yeah you're def right, I was thinking in regards to more aggressive games in general and with regs that do actually 5bet bluff and/or 3bet for value thinner to begin with.

I also still think that whether to 4bet or call the 3bet should be very dependant on the specific situation in which we find ourselves (aka based on specific villain tendencies, position, history etc...).
25 NL QQ 3bet pot IP vs reg. Quote
03-15-2010 , 08:43 PM
Great to see you in the micro forums Threads and enjoying your DC series.

I am trying to make sense of villian line.
It seems completely spewey.

I presume it is just OP, and NFDs - would you agree?

If he 100% flats AA,KK to a 3-bet of his UTG range and 100% c/shoves JJ/TT - then they basically cancel each other out and we are prolly the splitting shares of the dead money with FDs.

What assumptions would you make on the variables outlined above?
25 NL QQ 3bet pot IP vs reg. Quote
03-15-2010 , 08:45 PM
now that I think about it, I think its a bad fold. At that moment, I didn think he would cr shove all his chips with 10's or JJ.
25 NL QQ 3bet pot IP vs reg. Quote
03-15-2010 , 08:46 PM
I guess I am saying is - if he only ever c/ships AA,KK and NFD then we are in a SA/WB proposition.
He might never play TT this way - he might c/c lead turn or c/c c/f
25 NL QQ 3bet pot IP vs reg. Quote
03-15-2010 , 08:50 PM
what is SA /WB?
25 NL QQ 3bet pot IP vs reg. Quote
03-15-2010 , 08:53 PM
Slightly Ahead/ Way Behind.
If his range composes exclusively of value hands and draws.

We are slightly ahead of his draws but way behind his value range

= SA/WB
25 NL QQ 3bet pot IP vs reg. Quote
03-16-2010 , 02:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexB182
yeah you're def right, I was thinking in regards to more aggressive games in general and with regs that do actually 5bet bluff and/or 3bet for value thinner to begin with.

I also still think that whether to 4bet or call the 3bet should be very dependant on the specific situation in which we find ourselves (aka based on specific villain tendencies, position, history etc...).
For sure man, but imo those aggressive games are more like 2/4 or higher games(there are certainly a few players but most guys like that at 50NL, 100NL, or even 200NL just move up).

I agree that the situation may cause me to do something entirely different, but I think default calling AA is a better place to start than default 4-betting it versus standard TAGs at the small and micro stakes.
25 NL QQ 3bet pot IP vs reg. Quote
03-16-2010 , 02:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiggertheDog
Great to see you in the micro forums Threads and enjoying your DC series.
Thanks, man. Glad you're liking it!

Quote:
I am trying to make sense of villian line.
It seems completely spewey.

I presume it is just OP, and NFDs - would you agree?
Mostly, yes. I would say that him having a boat isn't out of the realm os possibility though.

Quote:
If he 100% flats AA,KK to a 3-bet of his UTG range and 100% c/shoves JJ/TT - then they basically cancel each other out and we are prolly the splitting shares of the dead money with FDs.

What assumptions would you make on the variables outlined above?
Right, well obviously he isn't likely to c/s JJ/TT here that much, but he also isn't that likely to flat AA pre. It really gets to be an estimating thing. The thing is we have an overpair to the board and if he is ever doing this as a bluff then folding getting 2-to-1 can be a huge mistake.

The real crux of the argument is if he is not shoving here often enough for us to call then how big of a deal is it to check the flop? it's not a big deal and in fact it's probably a better play. If he isn't shoving JJ/TT here then we aren't stacking JJ/TT so we might as well just check the flop. And then if you take that one step further then if we can't bet this flop then why did we 3-bet preflop(this one is less obvious because there can be good reasons to 3-bet preflop then check the flop... but the basic idea is true). Which is why if I'm betting this flop I'm committed and just calling it off.

Let me know if I didn't explain that well.
25 NL QQ 3bet pot IP vs reg. Quote
03-16-2010 , 06:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by threads13
For sure man, but imo those aggressive games are more like 2/4 or higher games(there are certainly a few players but most guys like that at 50NL, 100NL, or even 200NL just move up).

I agree that the situation may cause me to do something entirely different, but I think default calling AA is a better place to start than default 4-betting it versus standard TAGs at the small and micro stakes.
I agree with you that calling 3bets is usually better than 4betting in micro stakes.
I think it gets really close if we move up to stakes where people understand that our 3bet calling range in some spots will be incredibly narrow and by that allow them to play pretty much optimal (say we open AA in UTG, MP 3bets, we call. 100BBs stacks). Balancing becomes a more important issue there imo.


Quote:
Originally Posted by threads13


Right, well obviously he isn't likely to c/s JJ/TT here that much, but he also isn't that likely to flat AA pre. It really gets to be an estimating thing. The thing is we have an overpair to the board and if he is ever doing this as a bluff then folding getting 2-to-1 can be a huge mistake.

The real crux of the argument is if he is not shoving here often enough for us to call then how big of a deal is it to check the flop? it's not a big deal and in fact it's probably a better play. If he isn't shoving JJ/TT here then we aren't stacking JJ/TT so we might as well just check the flop. And then if you take that one step further then if we can't bet this flop then why did we 3-bet preflop(this one is less obvious because there can be good reasons to 3-bet preflop then check the flop... but the basic idea is true). Which is why if I'm betting this flop I'm committed and just calling it off.

Let me know if I didn't explain that well.
I think we both can pretty easily agree that flatting > 3betting PF in this spot.

I don't really agree though with checking the flop with QQ, the reasons being:
- hands that contain an overcard have either 3 or 6 outs against us. Assuming villain never calls a turn bet with A hi if he bricks and we bet then I don't see the value in checking back on the flop.
- if villain has JJ,TT then there are 10 scare cards in the deck that might easily keep him from putting any more money in the pot. I'm not necessarily saying that villain will stack off here with JJ,TT but he won't c/f either on this flop.
- if we operate under the assumption that villain is not putting any more money in on this flop then checking would also be kind of bad because we're giving him a freeroll on his 2 outer.

So yeah, for me it's a b/call as well.
25 NL QQ 3bet pot IP vs reg. Quote
03-16-2010 , 08:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbibi
And his continuation range when getting 3bet is ? Just saying.
TT-AA

AK/ AQ/ AJcc

And a weird seven. 87/ 67/ A7

I agree, we are SA/ WB, BUT why in the would he shove here, with AA/ KK?

His line looks super fishy to me.

My point is: almost no player at the micros flats AA/ KK pre.
25 NL QQ 3bet pot IP vs reg. Quote
03-16-2010 , 08:48 AM
Why on earth do you think a 7x hand is in his 3bet flatting range? Hell, why is a 7x hand in his UTG opening range?
25 NL QQ 3bet pot IP vs reg. Quote
03-16-2010 , 09:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by schummlalala
You must be kidding, really.

If you don't like to 3bet his OR with QQ I recommend you fold Queens everytime.
This is so wrong. There is plenty of value in playing QQ in position vs a 10-13% opening range (which is what the OP said the reg was opening.) However, when you 3bet you are really just isolating yourself with the reg's continuing range, and UTG it is probably something like JJ-AA, AQs+, AKo. Now all of a sudden your QQ is not looking so hot.
25 NL QQ 3bet pot IP vs reg. Quote
03-16-2010 , 02:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexB182
I agree with you that calling 3bets is usually better than 4betting in micro stakes.
I think it gets really close if we move up to stakes where people understand that our 3bet calling range in some spots will be incredibly narrow and by that allow them to play pretty much optimal (say we open AA in UTG, MP 3bets, we call. 100BBs stacks). Balancing becomes a more important issue there imo.
I think you are overrating the need for balance at the small stakes. Even at 100 and 200 it's really not that important versus most TAGs. They just aren't going to ever find out that you are out of balance in certain spots and even if they do they don't have the confidence in their reads/ability to make the proper adjustments to do anything about it.


Quote:
I think we both can pretty easily agree that flatting > 3betting PF in this spot.
Since this hand was posted... yep.

Quote:
I don't really agree though with checking the flop with QQ, the reasons being:
- hands that contain an overcard have either 3 or 6 outs against us. Assuming villain never calls a turn bet with A hi if he bricks and we bet then I don't see the value in checking back on the flop.
- if villain has JJ,TT then there are 10 scare cards in the deck that might easily keep him from putting any more money in the pot. I'm not necessarily saying that villain will stack off here with JJ,TT but he won't c/f either on this flop.
- if we operate under the assumption that villain is not putting any more money in on this flop then checking would also be kind of bad because we're giving him a freeroll on his 2 outer.

So yeah, for me it's a b/call as well.
Yeah, this is all true. Although I'm not saying that he won't put in any more money with JJ/TT. I'm saying we have a 2 streets of value hand. If that's the case we have to check one street. One of the streets that we will likely bet is the river so we are either checking the flop or the turn. If that's the case then checking the flop is better versus JJ/TT. Giving him a free chance to catch a 2 outter is not a big deal.

Also, if we are betting to protect versus AK and get some value from JJ/TT then I think our bet size is too big.

There are definite cons in checking back the flop. If a guy's range is something like TT+/AQ+ then I don't like checking back the flop as much as when his range were 22+/AQ+. That's what I was referring to when the situation for checking back the flop comes up. However, we have to balance all those cons against the con of getting a CRAI and being completely lost at what to do with our stack. That is the worst con in the world. If we are on the fence about whether we should call it off

Having said all that, it's a spot where I think a mixed strategy is best against a TAG so I would do both. The decision for me would be how often to do each.
25 NL QQ 3bet pot IP vs reg. Quote
03-16-2010 , 04:15 PM
I remember posting a hand not so long ago where I checked back KK on QT7 in a very similair pre-flop spot ... and boy was I criticize for doing that as I was apparently missing on a ton of value.

I now have the feeling that a 2C coach would not have minded the check back.

I would very much appreciate your thoughts threads13

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78...z-vbet-730026/
25 NL QQ 3bet pot IP vs reg. Quote
03-17-2010 , 01:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by threads13
However, we have to balance all those cons against the con of getting a CRAI and being completely lost at what to do with our stack. That is the worst con in the world. If we are on the fence about whether we should call it off

Having said all that, it's a spot where I think a mixed strategy is best against a TAG so I would do both. The decision for me would be how often to do each.
But the threat of getting c/shoved on is not necessarily gone if we check the flop back. In fact, given that we're way more likely to check back stuff like QQ,JJ as opposed to AA,KK, c/r the turn could easily be a good play...
25 NL QQ 3bet pot IP vs reg. Quote
03-17-2010 , 03:31 PM
i'd prolly put him on nines and call
25 NL QQ 3bet pot IP vs reg. Quote
03-18-2010 , 01:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexB182
But the threat of getting c/shoved on is not necessarily gone if we check the flop back. In fact, given that we're way more likely to check back stuff like QQ,JJ as opposed to AA,KK, c/r the turn could easily be a good play...
I think you are giving him entirely too much credit to think he will suddenly c/rai the turn as a bluff if we check back the flop.
25 NL QQ 3bet pot IP vs reg. Quote
03-18-2010 , 01:51 AM
so consensus is that I should call his shove here right?
25 NL QQ 3bet pot IP vs reg. Quote
03-18-2010 , 06:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwangbin
so consensus is that I should call his shove here right?
Lol, well said its seems pretty split

So if we chk back flop (which I def see merit to) then how do we proceed from there? There are so many diffferent things that can happen on the turn that i dont think its enough just to say 'chk back flop'. Then what? Are we just trying to get to sd with one bet made/called? Are we b/f or b/c the turn? How about if a club rolls off?

I think prefer a preflop 3b as i def think this villan will call with worse.
25 NL QQ 3bet pot IP vs reg. Quote

      
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