[LOW] 200NL - AA Bet Size Decision - Micro Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

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[LOW] 200NL - AA Bet Size Decision

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08-04-2022 , 08:07 PM

0NoobiePoker0

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 2,313

Button is 21/20/14 in 190 hands. So how much do you like betting on the turn???? Thanks-

BTN: 105.4 BB
SB: 143.89 BB
BB: 104.47 BB
UTG: 78.08 BB
Hero (CO): 152.54 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A

fold, Hero raises to 2.5 BB, BTN raises to 9 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 22.5 BB, BTN calls 13.5 BB

Flop: (46.5 BB, 2 players) J

Hero bets 22.5 BB, BTN calls 22.5 BB

Turn: (91.5 BB, 2 players) K

Hero bets ???

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08-04-2022 , 08:43 PM

BigBananas

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 1,385

I very much like jam turn here.

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08-04-2022 , 09:02 PM

AskZandar

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 2,722

Jam, but not really thrilled

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08-04-2022 , 09:18 PM

JamAdebayo

old hand

Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 1,522

What made you go half pot on this board? Not saying its bad, just interested in the process. Anyway whenever I pick that size in a 4b pot I always use jam as my only turn size, but I know solvers will pick the small size leaving a comically low river SPR sometimes. Like if the K is a rainbow GTOwiz is betting 1/3p with range which is like half your stack, which I can wrap my head around theoretically but seems hard to navigate.

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08-04-2022 , 09:28 PM

0NoobiePoker0

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Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 2,313

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamAdebayo

Well it’s like a 1/4 pot or 1/2 pot on flop I believe, 1/2 working well here I think. And yeah the GTO small turn bet is really why I posted it. Not sure anyone is really doing that in practice though and think most of us just ship it.

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08-04-2022 , 09:47 PM

JamAdebayo

old hand

Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 1,522

I'm interested in how solver plays this if the only turn size you give it is jam tho, because I assume that would make it carve out a bigger checking range than GTOwiz has on this turn (which is like 10% on this suit of K) -- not impossible AA would even make it in there some of the time? Basically I think this is one of the few turn cards where the 1/2p flop sizing has made things really awkward for us, because its so good for our range that we want to barrel small and often but there's not a ton of SPR left to maneuver that strategy.

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08-08-2022 , 10:16 AM

dude45

veteran

Join Date: Sep 2019 Posts: 2,807

The GTO small turn bet that leaves you with some fraction of a pot sized bet is a head scratcher to me. I assume the money we save when we miss outweighs the money we gain when we shove our bluffs on the turn. Of course OP doesnt have a bluff but if we have bluffs in a sizing, we need value and solver probably AA is as good a hand as any.

Anyway, thats my guess. Hopefully someone who really knows the inner workings of how a solver thinks will chime in

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08-08-2022 , 10:45 AM

whitemares

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 5,762

Think jam is the only bet sizing option when you 1/2 the flop, which I'm not sure that we want to do here. Think that's more of a thing on the more dynamic board textures, maybe on J9xtt we could

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08-08-2022 , 10:49 AM

JamAdebayo

old hand

Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 1,522

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude45

Pretty sure in most cases it's because villain is forced to call down lighter vs two tiny bets than vs one big turn bet, and when our value hands don't need a ton of protection they benefit more from that sizing scheme than from jamming turn and getting slightly fewer calls. So more about value than bluffs. In this particular hand it's also that the K is so good for our range that we want to bet pretty much all of it which necessitates a small sizing (whereas if we split our range between bet/check and jam with our bets, villain can find a lot of folds because the K smashes us)

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08-08-2022 , 10:53 AM

#10

JamAdebayo

old hand

Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 1,522

Quote:

Originally Posted by whitemares

Think jam is the only bet sizing option when you 1/2 the flop, which I'm not sure that we want to do here. Think that's more of a thing on the more dynamic board textures, maybe on J9xtt we could

I remember running this thru wiz when he first posted it and iirc it used 50%p and 25%p pretty close to evenly, but yeah if anyone has any good heuristics for 4bet pot betsizing I'm all ears (I"ve mostly been reserving 1/2p for the somewhat dynamic Jhi to 8hi middle boards, with the exception of UTG 4bets where I use it somewhat more often because we've just trying to shovel in money with overpairs and the rest of our range is bluffs)

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08-08-2022 , 11:36 AM

#11

Fleetttt

grinder

Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 550

range checking flop at all?

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08-08-2022 , 12:05 PM

#12

0NoobiePoker0

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Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 2,313

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fleetttt

range checking flop at all?

Nah, as the OOP 4 bettor you're mostly betting this flop.

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08-08-2022 , 04:21 PM

#13

Fleetttt

grinder

Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 550

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0NoobiePoker0

Nah, as the OOP 4 bettor you're mostly betting this flop.

I ran a solve and seems would should be mostly checking, based on my own ranges anyway

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08-08-2022 , 06:18 PM

#14

0NoobiePoker0

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 2,313

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fleetttt

I ran a solve and seems would should be mostly checking, based on my own ranges anyway

Not sure what solver or ranges you’re using. GTO Wiz has this spot betting about 70% of the time, with AA betting essentially 100% of the time.

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08-09-2022 , 05:57 AM

#15

Fleetttt

grinder

Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 550

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0NoobiePoker0

Not sure what solver or ranges you’re using. GTO Wiz has this spot betting about 70% of the time, with AA betting essentially 100% of the time.

just a fairly tight polar 4betting range vs a somewhat wide depol flatting range. Pretty good board for them usually. I'll post ranges later, working rn.

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08-09-2022 , 10:49 AM

#16

Fleetttt

grinder

Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 550

Hero OOP

Villain IP

Have them flatting their broadways 50% and some of the top hands 40% ott. GTO+ has us betting 30% roughly. Ranges are my own assumptions though. If we polarize OOP further it's like 85% check.

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08-09-2022 , 12:02 PM

#17

whitemares

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 5,762

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fleetttt

Hero OOP

Villain IP

Have them flatting their broadways 50% and some of the top hands 40% ott. GTO+ has us betting 30% roughly. Ranges are my own assumptions though. If we polarize OOP further it's like 85% check.

Where'd you get those ranges from? I don't know how AQs/AJs/KQs are anything but pure calls for CO, regardless of the rake structure

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08-09-2022 , 02:37 PM

#18

0NoobiePoker0

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Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 2,313

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fleetttt

Hero OOP

Villain IP

Have them flatting their broadways 50% and some of the top hands 40% ott. GTO+ has us betting 30% roughly. Ranges are my own assumptions though. If we polarize OOP further it's like 85% check.

Thanks for sharing. I think you should use solid ranges from something like GTO Wiz to build your ranges. CO is four betting hands like ATs, KTs, JTs, a lot here, even sometimes hands like K9s, AJos, KQos.

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08-09-2022 , 03:07 PM

#19

Fleetttt

grinder

Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 550

Quote:

Originally Posted by whitemares

Where'd you get those ranges from? I don't know how AQs/AJs/KQs are anything but pure calls for CO, regardless of the rake structure

Preflop GTO plays a fairly 4b/fold strategy in CO Vs BTN 3bets as far as I can see.

I found it weird myself at first but it makes sense to have hands that realise equity well when BTN is going to be flatting 4bets IP a fair amount.

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08-09-2022 , 03:08 PM

#20

Fleetttt

grinder

Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 550

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0NoobiePoker0

Yes I'm sure I can improve them. Not playing enough lately to justify the cost of wizard GTO though. Maybe if I play more I'll get to work on it.

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08-09-2022 , 03:44 PM

#21

0NoobiePoker0

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Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 2,313

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fleetttt

Yes I'm sure I can improve them. Not playing enough lately to justify the cost of wizard GTO though. Maybe if I play more I'll get to work on it.

Understood, though PF ranges for GTO Wizard I believe are still free.

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08-09-2022 , 04:48 PM

#22

Fleetttt

grinder

Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 550

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0NoobiePoker0

Understood, though PF ranges for GTO Wizard I believe are still free.

Oh ok nice tip I will have a look. Thanks

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