I played 100NL on Stars and will play 200NL sometimes (although have not recently).

My primary income comes from poker, yes. It's really difficult managing multiple things (writing, producing videos, playing at the tables). I haven't played 100NL FR for about 4 weeks and when I sat back down to play a few days ago, I was already rusty. Use it or lose it. That's why I don't play my higher stakes (by that I mean higher than 100NL - so 200NL or 400NL) right now - I simply can't play them enough to really be "in the zone" when I do play. I hope I answered your question.

Depends on what you want out of poker. Some love the rush of playing big pots. Some like just the intellectual challenge of it and the money doesn't make that much of a difference. I would say that 100NL is a level where you can make decent money (6-10K/month). Some people even make their primary income as low as 25NL. There is no single answer for this - just ask Guy Laliberté.

Leak Finder, Part 1

Doing a leak finder, either on someone else or on yourself, is similar to being a detective examining a crime scene. In this particular case, the crime is quite brutal and gory, but aren't those the best kind to examine?

We begin by looking at the big picture, and then start breaking down the little details as they come up. In some cases, the crime is obvious. In others, it's more subtle. It's our job to offer some answers to the evidence presented before us.

So - since the goal of this thread is to help you become a more independent learner of poker, I will try to make this interactive. I will offer two a few pieces of evidence and then ask for some general thoughts. Not all the evidence is damning - it's up to you to discern between what is and isn't important and what is and isn't significant. Let's get started.



Even if you are not losing at the rate that this player is, I'm confident that the method with which I will approach looking for his leaks will give you some insight into your own game. I picked gsiciliano because he was losing at a high rate over a reasonable sample and I figured he would have some clear leaks. As it turned out, they were not in places where I would have expected.

Step 1: Select Your Sample

This means using the filters to look at your specific hands. I decided to just look at gsicilano's 10NL hands with 3-6 people. You can select both of those options in Filter menu.

For comparison, I used my own uNL database, but because I didn't have enough 10NL hands, I added 25NL to my sample to have around 35K hands.

Since I wanted to look at his databased, I asked him to export the hands and then send them to me. If you want to know how to do that, I made a short 2.5 minute YouTube video detailing this process.

Step 2: Are You Simply Running Bad?

Examine your graph and look at your EV.



As you can see, he is playing fairly nitty preflop, yet losing at a really big rate. Our next step will examine the ... wait for it ...

Step 3: Examine Your Red Line (Positionally)

His positional stats and red line graph:



My own from 10NL/25NL:



So what can we infer so far?

Maybe he is folding too much? Certainly not winning much before showdown. I would guess he is very passive after the flop unless he has a nut type hand

That's about right imo; putting money into the pot in poor spots & then folding, not picking up on weakness pre-flop & stealing, not value betting enough & winning hands w/o showdown & not playing draws aggressively enough; ie; calling & folding [again].

^^^This
Generally these players play draws passively, they are vary rarely semi bluff raising flops even with monster draws. They want the "low variance" play but don't realize just how many folds they will get and how profitable it can be. I would also assume he is very fit or fold post flop. even if he has 77 on a 10 6 2 flop he will be folding a lot of the time.

He also never bluffs the river. Never ever ever, he is much to happy to just fold or get to showdown. If you bluff the river and get caught your redline doesn't go down your blue one does.

I would say that it's looking like he's too passive/foldy, and needs to develop a more aggressive table image. What are gsiciliano's stats when it comes to c-betting? does he ever double barrel? check-raise?

He's pretty tight/nitty, so his aggressive moves should command some respect even when he doesn't have the best hand. Maybe he just isn't making those moves?

playing wrong table? if u have nits on your left u can abuse BTN and SB
can we see the graph with v$pip only?

Since his W$woSD goes up by position, he looks to be playing quite passively oop. I would believe he ran into some bad coolers (IE: sets vs overpairs), except that he is running above EV, which makes that less likely.

His 3b from the blinds is higher than from the co and btn, which makes it feel like he is stubborn and c/c'ing down too much once he sees a flop.

It looks like he has trust issues, but not enough conviction to raise. Just enough to call and hope to have the best hand on the river.

One generous explanation is that this could be table/seat selection. If he is playing with a lot of overly aggro players and letting them do all the betting for him, this can happen. It isn't a terrible way to handle maniacs, but it does lead to losing huge pots when you're behind and winning smaller ones when you're ahead, unless you're able to read the board very well. Especially if you are out of position vs. them.

Posting in here hoping for advice. Essentially I've been playing poker a couple of years now, started taking online more seriously about a year ago. Made about $1100 online last year, mainly through rakeback freerolls and microstakes cash (I rekon I'm only a very marginal winner to break even in cash games overall although made a decent profit last year).

Last August I ran $50 upto to $1200 playing cash, playing primarily 10nl/25nl and took some shots at 50nl.

Problem hit in October, I started a new job and I'm earning decent money for the first time. This meant I started viewing poker and the limits I play differently, kind of lost respect for it I suppose? I dropped about $350 at 50nl and swiftly cashed out the remainder of my BR scared of losing it all.

Problem is I want to get the grind back but I just can't take the lower stakes seriously. Like 10nl is the lowest I can play and even then my concentration fades so quickly. 25nl/50nl is much better however I play a lot worse when the money means less and I feel I need to work on my game at lower stakes before moving up. I don't want to go and deposit a huge chunk online, I want to start with like $100 and move my way up again.

The problem also isn't helped by the fact I've been playing a live £.50/1 game when I can (rarely due to distance away the game runs but long sessions when I do) and seem to play so much better because of the money involved. I'm focused on literally every decision and I can't emulate this online at all, especially at lower stakes.

Expecting a bunch of tl;dr but any serious advice would be well received,

Cheers.

Hi. First of all, & I'm sure you don't need me to tell you this; never lose respect for money you have worked hard for! Do you really want to give it away to someone you don't know? Many of us here see poker as a hobby rather than a career, & maintaining interest & a sensible level of involvement isn't always easy. For example, I could afford to play way higher than 50nl if I wanted to, however, because of the way I have approached poker I am realistic enough to know I would be burning money if I did. So I set myself strict bankroll guidelines as a way of policing myself & also as a means of setting out stepping stones that I need to pass. A bankroll challenge is 1 way of stimulating your interest, but if you can't put in the volume starting at $100 might be a long slow process. Another way would be to deposit say $1200, buy HM etc, start off at 25nl & try to reach $2,000 then having a shot at 50nl, see how long you can last there before dropping $200, then drop back down. By then you will have an idea of where you stand in today's game & a good idea if you are going to enjoy it again? Oh, & post in 2+2! Gl.

I think there is a quote somewhere about poker that goes something along the lines of "you will only truly understand the value of money in poker once you quit thinking about it." (Bad paraphrasing I am sure)

I think the point is that if you are not able to beat the next "meaningful" level then perhaps you have some significant leaks which do not hurt you as much at the lower levels.

Looking for advice here, posting hands, joining discussions all help you grow as a player. Why not use this great free resource (2+2) to help you improve so that you can play at whatever level you desire?

Ye I've just taken a quick look at some stats, I'm beating 25nl 1.99bb/100 and 10nl 2.01bb/100 over roughly last year. 50nl is another story all together but tiny tiny sample.

Already have HEM etc. and confident I can still beat 25nl if I spend time developing not just playing. Problem is I wanna get there via 5nl/10nl and these are the limits I struggle playing for reasons mentioned before.

I might get a stake with maybe a volume agreement. That might spur me to play more and maybe keep my focus with it being someone elses money?

Based on what you said (new high paying job, unable to take micros seriously due to $$ involved, able to focus at higher blind live game), my advice is to just deposit $1000 online and give 50NL a shot. If the money still doesn't seem to matter, move up until it starts to matter.

Gsicilano seems to have problems playing pots oop. His overall winrate for mp+co is even lower than utg.

He is loosing too much in the blinds.

He is not winning enough in showdowns to make up for his non-showdown loosing. So he is probably not building the pots. He is winning small pots instead of big ones. I assume he is not semi-bluffing enough when he has good equity.

His 3bet stats for mp, co and btn are essentially the same. He is 3betting ~4%. That is a range of 99+, AK. He is not using his position to put pressure on loose raisers. At least on the button.

Too me these stats look like he is playing to passively especially oop. Maybe he is even playing fit-or-fold oop.

Good stuff!
Gsiciliano should really look out for spots where he can take down dead money, especially in unraised pots!!

I'm really interested in 2barrel frequencies etc....

I find being in the zone and trying to get inside the heads of my opponents does wonders for my red line. The reason I believe is that it is easier to find good bluffing / rebluffing opportunities (and pass on others) , for example c/r-ing flops when facing a c bet from a habitual cbetter. Also having a plan really helps and firing extra barrels when appropriate. Be aware getting too crazy with this can and will affect your blue line.

Funny. I have the opposite problem. I am working now ~10 years and earning a nice salary. $100 mean basically nothing to me. I started playing poker seriously last year again (after a few year break). Deposited $50 and started playing 2NL planning to run it up. Loosing 2-3 BuyIns in a session frustrates me so much. It's tilting


Maybe you should go broke once? The next deposit would probably mean more to you?


Try playing a 10NL session as long as you can concentrate and take the game serious. When you realise that you dont take it serious anymore try standing up. See "Leaving when I loose my concentration" as the goal of a session. Tommy Angelo-ish

i always thought the red line issue was slightly over done. Hey am i going to complain that someone is ruining my red line by calling me when i have the nuts? no!.... put then i started to review missed opportunities.
i think Gsicilano however looks like is giving up too soon (or does not know when to stop). here is an example i just had. Villain was a mess 82/2. so he could have anything (saw him limp in with AA and AK vs hero! (AA hurt my green line)). so even if my flop did not hit, there is 80% it did not hit him either.

No Limit Hold'em - 6 player

CO: $12.20
BTN: $12.20
SB: $1.40
BB: $13.45
Hero (UTG): $10.00
MP: $3.20

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is UTG with Q K
Hero raises to $0.30, 2 folds, BTN calls $0.30, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.75) J 9 J (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.50, Hero raises to $1.25, BTN folds


up tic on the redline!




Other issue. we seem to lose as much in Small Bling then Big Blind. This could be way to many completion. Hand selection in Small blind needs to improve. This is not a nice place to complete- we are out of position, and we have no info on BB's hand. We actually put money in as often as in CO, where our range should be wider.

Fanatstic result and this thread has been extremlly helpful, took some time to read throught the downswing threads and very helpful

I have taken your advice and will be taking a mini break over the weekend to spend sometime with the family and refocus

Last night I dropped down a level as you suggested and low and behold your right again, I didnt feel any issues I start playing agressive poker and stealing pots left right and centre and thought to myself where has this been for the last week.

Again thanks again for the feedback and assitance

my micro stakes adventure is over, heck, my online pokeradventure looks like over

posted this: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78.../#post17692175
and got beaten some more after that on the tables, please explain me thats a normal downswing then maybe, MAYBE, i'll get back...

greets

Verneer, this thread is awesome. Thank you (and everyone else who has contributed) for what's posted so far, and I look forward to future posts.

Well, first I´d like to thank Verneer for this epic thread, and specially for taking his precious time to analyse my game. I´d also like to thank for all the comments, really helpfull.
I don´t know if any of you have any idea of how this endless downtrend in my graph bothers me. I´m a very dedicated player, I study a lot of poker, have read more than 40 poker books (all the classics and much more...), I´m member of CR, Stoxpoker, DC and now DTB, have a notebook (the old paper one) totally filled with notes on every single video of microstakes at CR (of course, all Verneers videos) and several of the other sites, I dig deep into my HM searching for filters to analyse my game, I perform session reviews after every single session, doing equity equations. It´s not like I´m some kind of recreational player, I take it very seriously because I just love this game and I want to be the best poker player I can be.
Going more for the psychological side, I think one of the reasons is that I´m in a state of subacute/chronic tilt that turned me into a weak-tight, or better, a scared-tight player. Let me just try to elaborate this a little more. I´m brazilian and here poker is not very well understood, not taken very seriously yet (hopefully it will get better). I´m a 37 years old surgeon and when I tell people I play poker and aspire being a pro people look at me like I´m some kind of freak. My wife HATES the fact that I play poker. I do not give a F*** about that. I don´t have any friends who play poker, so I´m pretty much on my own. That´s a lot of pressure. What I believe may have triggered all of this was my incapacity to deal with variance. I got one or two coolers, just like everyone, start playing my B-game and when I see I´m a scared player, putting villains in extremely narrow ranges, that are inconsistent with my limits (10NL), always folding thinking they have me beat (note that I´m not blaming luck here, I´m blaming my inability to deal with it). Of course I have a lot of "technical" leaks but I don´t think they are the main reason for this kind of results, I think fear is.
I´m not gonna stop untill I´m able to post a beautiful smooth uptrend in my graph and I thak you all for helping me and, again, I thank Verneer. After all, you guys are all I´ve got.

How many tables do you normally play? If you play more than 4, I want you to just play 3 for a while. I also want you to institute the MDoranD Tilt Proof Session Manager (TM) which goes like this:

Start out with 3 tables. If you find yourself up a buy-in, then you can add another table. If you lose a buy-in, you have to get rid of your least profitable table (how should you determine this?). If you find yourself down ANOTHER buy-in, get rid your 2nd table. If you win a buy-in back, you can add a new table.

Basically - this forces you to really game select and cuts your session losses at a max of 3 BI's and makes sure you not leaking too much money. For someone on chronic tilt this is a good idea.

I noticed his bb/100 is actually higher UTG than on the button (not my much but still). So maybe he feels more comfortable with a stronger range or isn't taking advantage of his position enough

I usually play 4 tables, but I´ll try starting with three and reevaluate