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Weird spot, not sure if cooler or I suck? Weird spot, not sure if cooler or I suck?

08-18-2018 , 01:08 AM
First time asking about a hand, was super unsure what to do. Preflop, when the initial raiser raises and is 3 bet, i contemplated 4 betting but wanted to keep ranges wide since the small blinds 3 bet stats were low so if I 4 bet and get called it puts me in a weird spot in a large spot, and if they fold I miss out on value. I keep getting into spots like this and it's confusing...am I calling too wide...please let me know as this is really hurting my winrate LOL.

Villain could be betting a missed flushdraw, a worse Ace, maybe even a high pocket pair?

Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BB): 286.5 BB
UTG: 120 BB (VPIP: 11.76, PFR: 11.76, 3Bet Preflop: 8.33, Hands: 34)
MP: 147.5 BB (VPIP: 32.26, PFR: 20.97, 3Bet Preflop: 12.00, Hands: 63)
CO: 64 BB (VPIP: 28.89, PFR: 6.67, 3Bet Preflop: 1.61, Hands: 139)
BTN: 100 BB (VPIP: 20.54, PFR: 13.36, 3Bet Preflop: 4.95, Hands: 1,832)
SB: 117.5 BB (VPIP: 24.02, PFR: 8.05, 3Bet Preflop: 5.81, Hands: 3,571)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q A

fold, MP raises to 2 BB, fold, fold, SB raises to 10 BB, Hero calls 9 BB, MP calls 8 BB

Flop: (30 BB, 3 players) 3 A 6
SB checks, Hero checks, MP bets 3 BB, SB calls 3 BB, Hero calls 3 BB

Turn: (39 BB, 3 players) 3
SB checks, Hero checks, MP bets 18 BB, fold, Hero calls 18 BB

River: (75 BB, 2 players) 8
Hero checks, MP bets 53.5 BB, Hero calls 53.5 BB

Hero shows Q A (Two Pair, Aces and Threes)
(Pre 70%, Flop 16%, Turn 9%)
MP shows 6 A (Two Pair, Aces and Sixes)
(Pre 30%, Flop 84%, Turn 91%)
MP wins 173 BB

3 BB was deducted from the pot for the jackpot.

Last edited by Necrocorpse; 08-18-2018 at 01:13 AM.
Weird spot, not sure if cooler or I suck? Quote
08-18-2018 , 02:16 AM
There was a thread the other day about coldcalling 3bet ranges. The consensus was 'don't do it'. 4b or fold pre.

AP youre never going to have a better hand to call down with, but at the same time V's line is pretty much always going to be AK or better.

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Weird spot, not sure if cooler or I suck? Quote
08-18-2018 , 08:25 AM
It's very close, but fold pre.
You can flat JJ in position vs the SB 3-bettor (cold 4-betting jacks is also fine), but mostly you should just 4-bet QQ+, AK, AJs+, and fold everything else. No offsuit hands apart from AK can profitably flat pre, but AK is always better as a 4-bet in this spot.
In short, calling pre is not a good compromise between a breakeven 4b bluff, or a fold. It's worse than both options.
Weird spot, not sure if cooler or I suck? Quote
08-18-2018 , 09:48 AM
AJs and AQs are 8 combos, it's not nearly enough to balance out the "value" hands and considering SB is supposed to 3bet around 18%, there's no way 4betting AQo isn't ++Ev even though this is nl2 and people don't 3bet nearly as much but his guy does seem to be aggressive so far.
Weird spot, not sure if cooler or I suck? Quote
08-18-2018 , 02:17 PM
Yeah so I did some research and it looks like a lot of people say that you shouldn't have a 3 bet cold calling range as it's hard to play and your hand is essentially face up. But if I 4bet AQ, and I'm called...I'm only getting called by better vs their ranges...so then I end up playing fit or fold postflop and just calling down on an A high board in a bloated pot. People don't bluff enough at the micros so having a 4 bet range vs these villains especially SB that includes AQ might be -EV? Or am I being too tight?
Weird spot, not sure if cooler or I suck? Quote
08-18-2018 , 02:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Necrocorpse
Yeah so I did some research and it looks like a lot of people say that you shouldn't have a 3 bet cold calling range as it's hard to play and your hand is essentially face up. But if I 4bet AQ, and I'm called...I'm only getting called by better vs their ranges...so then I end up playing fit or fold postflop and just calling down on an A high board in a bloated pot. People don't bluff enough at the micros so having a 4 bet range vs these villains especially SB that includes AQ might be -EV? Or am I being too tight?
Too tight. You might only get called by better (often not true) but you have the initiative and an uncapped range which can allow you to realise your equity much better than they can with a hand like TT.

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Weird spot, not sure if cooler or I suck? Quote
08-18-2018 , 04:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ojune
AJs and AQs are 8 combos, it's not nearly enough to balance out the "value" hands and considering SB is supposed to 3bet around 18%, there's no way 4betting AQo isn't ++Ev even though this is nl2 and people don't 3bet nearly as much but his guy does seem to be aggressive so far.
The terms "value" and "bluff" don't work very well pre-flop, let alone in cold 4-bet pots. In this scenario, AK is a "bluff" (nothing worse stacks off) and that's 16 combos. If you cold 4-bet jacks, I think you have to fold that to a shove too.
In effect, you use AKo, AQs, AJs and JJ as 4-bet/folds to balance your QQ+/AKs stack offs.

FWIW, I think Snowie even 4b/folds AKs in this exact spot, but I haven't folded AKs pre-flop since 1973. :/
Weird spot, not sure if cooler or I suck? Quote
08-18-2018 , 10:38 PM
I actually thought it was a button open :/ that's why I said sb should be 3betting 18%. You can disregard that.

I know value and bluff work more poorly the farther we are from the river, that's why I wrote "value". I call "value" hands that 4b/call and "bluffs" hands that 4bet/fold. Tbh I'm not surprised snowie folds AKs, I'm not even sure we can 4b/call QQ.

Let's say sb 3bets 7% vs mp and let's say sb(and mp) only defends by shoving against the bb 4bet. Let's also assume MP is opening 20% and shoves 1/10 of his opening range which is AKs,QQ+ and some AKo.

Let's say we 4bet to 24 in order to win 13 so it has to work 13/37=65%. MP and SB have to defend 35% and MP is already defending 10% so SB has to defend around 25%. 25% of 7% is 1.75%, slightly more than AKs,QQ+. AKs and QQ clearly don't do well enough against this range to call off.

I haven't taken blockers into consideration so ranges should be wider to prevent us from profiting with a hand like AJ (it's ok to show a direct profit with AK). What I don't understand though is why snowie is 4bet/calling QQ and not AKs since AKs does better against QQ+, AK.

Last edited by Ojune; 08-18-2018 at 10:44 PM.
Weird spot, not sure if cooler or I suck? Quote
08-19-2018 , 07:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ojune
What I don't understand though is why snowie is 4bet/calling QQ and not AKs since AKs does better against QQ+, AK.
I can't remember its 5bet range in this exact spot (I no longer have a snowie sub), but I think it probably uses a 5-bet range that is narrower than QQ+/AK. It might even just be AA and AKs (i.e. it might flat the 4-bet with kings).
Snowie is very strange like that. It will tell you what it thinks is the most profitable 4-bet/calling range vs all the strats it played/learned against, but it might not actually be optimal vs what it would 5-bet itself. I lost count of the times I played hands against it knowing that "it nearly always has aces in this spot", and yet it still wanted me to stack off with jacks. :/
Weird spot, not sure if cooler or I suck? Quote
08-20-2018 , 03:37 PM
AQo should just be mucked when the action is bet and raise in front of you. While this sounds like just being a nit, it is more complex. For starters, you are potentially 145BB deep vs MP. AQ is notorious for being “handcuffed” when flopping an Ace and getting action.

Most importantly, is that you want to be the player making a 3bet with AQo, not a player contemplating a flat call or a 4bet. With a 3bet you get the most information about the opponents range. Most players will 4bet AA, KK, QQ, and AKs, maybe AKo. Most players will never 4bet AJ, JJ, TT, etc.

So, you block a ton of the 4bet range, and you are fine versus most of what calls your 3bet when you hold AQ. When your opponent 4bets, you can confidently muck your AQo, maybe even AQs.

So, if you flat call AQ multiway, you are simultaneously hoping to flop an ace, but see not too much action. Not a sound game plan, imo.
Weird spot, not sure if cooler or I suck? Quote
08-21-2018 , 11:57 AM
I don't have a coldcall 3B range simply because when you do it, your hand is face up. You have mid PP, JJ maybe QQ or what you had AQ. You'll never have KK+. No way I'd CC AQ here and give MP >2:1 to play in position.

I recognize your tag from yesterday. I'll have to keep an eye on you to see if you're going to be a problem.
Weird spot, not sure if cooler or I suck? Quote

      
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