Too thin?

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NL Holdem 0.25(BB)
UTG ($34.50)
HJ ($54.89)
CO ($25.77)
BTN ($29.71)
HERO ($26.76)
BB ($29.88)

Dealt to Hero: 9 K

UTG Folds, HJ Folds, CO Folds, BTN Folds, HERO Raises To $0.75, BB Calls $0.50

Hero SPR on Flop: [17.34 effective]
Flop ($1.50): 2 9 3
HERO Bets $1.68 (Rem. Stack: $24.33), BB Calls $1.68 (Rem. Stack: $27.45)

Turn ($4.86): 2 9 3 4
HERO Bets $4.87 (Rem. Stack: $19.46), BB Calls $4.87 (Rem. Stack: $22.58)

River ($14.60): 2 9 3 4 2
HERO Bets $19.46 (allin), BB Calls $19.46 (Rem. Stack: $3.12)

Seems WP. Flop is a nice spot to overbet, turn is probably a mixed barrel, and then shipping river is a bit thin, but we should be looked up by 9x a lot.

uhm I don't think we're potting that flop, it's not like we're ip and can x/ turns
if you were btn, ye go ahead and ob 932, get your value and prot, deny overcards eq, hit top pairs on K/Q/J/T, abuse him when straights complete
it's not all roses oop cause he can flat you more and there's a fd and you don't have a spade
turn seems too thin to go pot again and river you're just bluffing, he would have to fold a good amount of worse 9

I thought solvers OBed flop here at some frequency? I'm not ranging so I'd rather use big sizing since that is easier to keep track of.

What's the worst hand you triple here?

I've no problem betting K9 for value but I'd go smaller flop and turn
my default is small otf, I know there's some mid to pot sized betting but bulk is small bets
cause what am I really achieving by betting big, I'm going to play 2 more streets oop and it's going to suck, might as well keep his range wide enough so I can go for thin value or xc more often

I checked

in anon zoom i think this is spew, vs confirmed trashie i could get behind it (and I mean a BIG trashie)
A smarter way to play it vs someone with a brain would be to triple half pot, for example

Or maybe you're triple barrel bluffing here lol

Thanks for the solve.

Yeah so looking at this solve. SB has no pure cbets OTF. Everything is mixed.

The way I approach that is when I bet small - I want to bet range. But if everything is mixed - Id rather just use bigger sizing and mostly X.

It's much easier to keep track of ranges this way instead of using some small sizing 50% frequency strategy. I'd rather use a large sizing ~20% strategy and the EV is similar.

Id expect the average NL25 reg to play close to perfect against that flop sizing by default

Which boards are you rangebetting SB vs BB then? Is there any texture where solvers pure bet anything when SPR is low, ranges are wide and we are OOP?
Even if EV is similar in theory, cbets are printing vs villains who don't raise enough

You mean SPR is high?

I don't think cbets print OOP. I'd need to see some pop data though to confirm.

2 broadway/1 low card no FD boards can be ranged with little to no EV loss.

huh? I'm gonna call BS on that statement.

What do you do with ATo here vs this sizing? What about 2x/3x?

It's not that intuitive.

Who says you can't just cbet mid freq and small?

You definitely can. But I'm already rnging a bunch preflop so now I have to start rnging flops in SBvsBB SRP for some ridiculously small EV gain?

I gotta draw the line somewhere. Especially when multi tabling + 15 second time clock.

Then don't RNG the flop, what does that have to do with the sizing
It's 25nl anon

I mean sizing and frequency are linked here. If we use small sizing then by definition we have to mix, just look at ionu's solve.

How the hell else would you mix if you didn't use an RNG?

I dont mind this line, but propably betting flop closer to half pot, a bit bigger turn, and similar sizing on river as on turn to not look like 100% valuebet, BUT i think ac9x is much better for so aggressive thin valuebetting.
I agree with aner0 that on anon tables it's a bit too much, just like this line with some dynamics with villain

Who cares about mixing when villains are not even playing you or your ranges, they're playing pool

On 25nl they won't be able to read your ranges if their life depended on it, let alone when they don't have any reads or history on you.

Just play the line that you consider highest EV.

I don't know why on some isntances you're vehement on following some type of GTO mixed balanced strategy where in other instances (when GTO doesn't agree with you) you say you don't even wanna play GTO.
If you wanna try and play GTO then focus on taking a profitable line before you focus mixing, it doesn't matter how you mix if the line you take is not a thing.

And if you don't wanna play GTO (which you shouldn't) then just take the most profitable line every time and print

So I solved the hand because to me it seemed an absolute punt but everyone was saying they think its WP so I thought maybe I'm missing something.

Flop sizing is not a thing but that's neither here nor there, I can understand why it's hard to nail every sizing on every flop.

After forcing flop to pot, this turn is never bet bigger than half pot with any hand, and this hand mixes. If I force to pot turn, it bets 15% of the range and pure checks this hand.

If I allow to half pot turn, river is pure checking with this hand.

Just think about how much of a punt it is when solver doesnt even wanna 3 barrel after potting flop and half potting turn...
That's why I said at first that it looked to me like a bluff.

Turn is losing bout 70bb/100 and river bet is losing 1000bb/100 comapred to checking

So forget about RNGing for now and focus on choosing 1 single line that works

First off, thanks for the solve aner0.

I know BvB SRP take awhile to solve, also my pc is a dinosaur so I can't get accurate sims in these spots.

Now when you say flop sizing isn't a thing - do you just mean it's super low frequency? Because ionu has a 6% PSB range there.

I don't really use half pot sizing ever. So let's say I 1/3 flop - can turn be an OB spot or should I just go 75% or so OTT?

From what I've studied these two tone flops are mostly small bets, with some small frequency of big overbets mixed in, in the order of 2x to 4x pot. Rainbow flops have much higher frequency of overbetting and to bigger sizings usually.

Turns s the OOP aggressor are very often bet at smaller sizings than IP situations, for two reasons as far as I can tell: Checking is worse so we build a mergier betting range, and having our hand be turned into a medium strength/SDV hand on some runouts hurts us a lot more OOP than IP, so we want to preserve the relative strength of our hand on future streets.
For this reason on a lot of turns that are good for villain, we will use sizings like 1/3, half pot and so on, which are less common IP.

Having said this you could get away with doing something like 2/3 or check, but then you would have to polarize more and be more careful about how runouts will affect the value of your hand.


At the end of the day, all of these sizing things in flop and turn are peanuts in terms of winrate in micros

What matters most is that by Showdown you build the pot to a certain amount with a certain value hand, any less would be missing value and any more would be value owning yourself

Why not try some half pot sizing? I like it. As aner0 said, let's find a simple line that works. If you want to 1/3 to little over half pot flop, that is fine.
Wondering what villain called you with.

Thanks for the analysis, I definitely appreciate your posts in general.

Yeah I just figured this out recently from Shipnickle that we flop OB cbet less on FD boards vs rainbows OTF. But that was IP.

Okay so maybe I should add 50% PSB to my game - I almost never use that sizing.

The reasons you said make sense.

I value own myself a ton in general - I think I still don't quite understand when to use OB's and just end up blasting whenever I think it could be an OB spot.

Obviously I still have a ton of leaks since I only play 25nl (although I think I could play higher but who knows).

Thanks for the insight.

I'll post results tomorrow

You should take a look at hands that go for 3 streets on different textures even on BTN v BB, you will probably be surprised of how many "strong" hands solver checks back on the river on certain textures, specially after overbetting turn. At the end of the day you do need to get called by worse more often than by better, even if your hand has 70%,75% equity versus villains current range, it may not be enough to get another street of value