NL50 is this fold too weak? - Micro Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

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NL50 is this fold too weak?

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05-28-2008 , 04:23 PM

ludacris

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 12,277

I normally play a little higher but have moved down in an attempt at secure BR management. Normally I feel like i would 4bet here but I was OOP and I see people 3bet with much smaller ranges at .25/.5 than other levels I've played.

MP is 36/22/1.8
BTN is 32/13/.9

I dont have 3bet stats, i still have pt2.

Poker Stars $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked

UTG: $20.30
MP: $57.40
CO: $31.70
BTN: $39.55
Hero (SB): $44.50
BB: $30.90

Pre Flop: Hero is SB with A

1 fold, MP raises to $2, 1 fold, BTN raises to $5.50, Hero Folds

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05-28-2008 , 04:28 PM

wisdommaster1

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 2,454

i'd probably fold this most of the time i might call but i feel like doing so isnt worth it if an A or K comes on the board he will shut down with QQ, JJ or 1010 and if he has AA or KK then its only gonna be ugly

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05-28-2008 , 04:39 PM

CallumWright

grinder

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 476

I 4 bet here almost always. Unless you know the button is a total nit, you should never be folding AK here.

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05-28-2008 , 04:41 PM

taloc

adept

Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,119

Quote:

Originally Posted by CallumWright

I 4 bet here almost always. Unless you know the button is a total nit, you should never be folding AK here.

What do you think his 3bet range is here?

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05-28-2008 , 04:50 PM

CallumWright

grinder

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 476

OK I'll accept we need stats on how aggresive he is on the button, and if we've never seen him do it before maybe the alarm bells should ring.

Sometimes in range: 88,99, AJ, random SCs and air
Often in range: AK, TT, JJ, AQ
Almost always in range: QQ, KK, AA (don't forget to consider there are only 6 card combinations of AA and KK combined).
With the MP wide opening range if button is paying attention (unlikely) he couldbe 3betting quite light.
Putting TT+ and AQs+ and AKo into poker stove gives us 45% equity which is more than enough here imo.

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05-28-2008 , 04:53 PM

lenC

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Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 12,101

Flat call at least.
And reload pre PF.

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05-28-2008 , 04:54 PM

CallumWright

grinder

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 476

Yeah ftr I don't hate calling. Didn't make that clear first time.

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05-28-2008 , 05:04 PM

kurto

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Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 17,634

Quote:

Originally Posted by lenC

Flat call at least.
And reload pre PF.

Why flatcall? You're not closing the betting. You're out of position for the entire hand. And most flops you're going to have to checkfold.

I agree with OP that outside of certain overly aggressive players (who you can generally identify rathar quickly) people don't 3 bet too lightly at microtables. So unless these two have a history I'd give BB a pretty narrow range.

Personally I would rathar get it all in (so I can see all 5 cards) or fold then smoothcall.

Though I'm open to hearing a good reason why my thoughtprocesses are off.

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05-28-2008 , 05:18 PM

taloc

adept

Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,119

I'm leaning towards fold > 4bet > call, calling almost never for the reasons kurto mentions above.

OP - What's your image at this point? How much FE do we have with a 4bet?

Those in favor of 4betting - what size? Shove?

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05-28-2008 , 05:25 PM

#10

CallumWright

grinder

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 476

4 bet to 13-14 imo. If you call then check raise any A or K on flop. As I said if he's a nit you can fold though.

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05-28-2008 , 05:28 PM

#11

lenC

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Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 12,101

I meant at least, sry about the misunderstanding.
imo 4-bet>call>fold. Because I do give the BTN credit for a good hand, and AK is close to 50:50 against his range. So yeah, we must have some FE. I prefer to just shove it in opposed to making it like $20.

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05-28-2008 , 05:33 PM

#12

CallumWright

grinder

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 476

Shoving is awful because it is such a ridiculous overbet. 13-15 is fine for a 4 bet here.

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05-28-2008 , 05:42 PM

#13

lenC

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Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 12,101

Quote:

Originally Posted by CallumWright

Shoving is awful because it is such a ridiculous overbet. 13-15 is fine for a 4 bet here.

If hero bets to 13 then BTN would have odds to call with ATC. By making it $20, we give 2:1 pot odds, and if called/raised we'd play for stacks. Shoving(note that Hero doesn't have 100bb) just gives us way more FE. Please correct if I'm wrong.

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05-28-2008 , 05:59 PM

#14

CallumWright

grinder

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 476

Apologies I didn't see button was short. I still think we can raise to 13-14 or so, but if you want to hit the felt pre then shoving is fine.
The reason why I wouldn't agree with raising to 20 normally, is if one is attempting a 4-bet bluff you need to be able to fold if the villain 5-bet shoves. Assuming he has bought in for the whole 100BB, raising to 20 here would make us pot committed with any two cards, if he shoved and we in fact had air.

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05-28-2008 , 06:14 PM

#15

notontilt09

chopping down Ivey

Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,764

4-bet to 18-20 seems about right here, but folding isn't terrible if you know BTN won't 3-bet light.

For those that 4-bet to 13 here and get called, which of the following flops are you c-betting (assume no flush draws)? Villian is left with a little more than a PSB, and i often have trouble playing these pots OOP.

1) 442
2) 678
3) Q23
4) JT5
5) 89T

Obviously any A/K high flop we are getting it in.

edit: i misread hand in OP, and thought we had opened first. oops

Last edited by notontilt09; 05-28-2008 at 06:37 PM.

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05-28-2008 , 06:31 PM

#16

idcimallin

centurion

Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 171

Calling should never be an option here without reads. You're oop, raise or fold. I would fold.

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05-28-2008 , 06:35 PM

#17

skoal2k4

veteran

Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,124

btn doesn't appear to be generally aggressive, yet here he is 3-betting. I'm leaning towards folding this, but If I do 4-bet this and it goes call.. call, then I'm shoving any flop

But like I said, I lean towards folding

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05-28-2008 , 06:40 PM

#18

rothbull2000

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 225

good fold

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05-28-2008 , 11:48 PM

#19

ludacris

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 12,277

Quote:

Originally Posted by lenC

Flat call at least.
And reload pre PF.

i have an auto reloader but it lags behind a hand or 2.

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05-29-2008 , 12:03 AM

#20

andy099

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,320

i think a fold here is fine. calling is the worst option here by a long way imo, oop and its gona be hard to get any value from our hand when we have him beat on the flop- i really feel calling is terrible.

against a 19/17 tag i 4 bet for sure here but a 32/13 i can't see 4 3 betting light or folding 1010,jj to a 4 bet from us. i prob 4 bet here tho some of the time.

again i reiterate how terrible flat calling with ak here is imo

meh and the fact that the button has ~ 80bbs makes this more of a shove/4 bet imo actually

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05-29-2008 , 01:49 AM

#21

fromak

grinder

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 507

I'm not quite sure I can fold this for such a small 3B.

I think there is a fine line between 4betting and folding in this situation...

When I'm OOP, I rarely call with AK since it's so hard to play without a cooperative flop.

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05-29-2008 , 02:32 AM

#22

orlov

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 7,176

calling is pretty bad since you dont close the action and ako isnt the greatest 3way hand, 4betting is okay if button 3bets fairly wide, otherwise just fold

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05-29-2008 , 04:16 AM

#23

geekylucas

centurion

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 131

I think a flatcall is pretty horrible with one person to act behind us. If original raiser calls I feel the remaining stack sizes vs pot size is pretty awkward, plus we will be first to act on the flop.

I like the fold. Against a much more LAG type player I don't mind a 4B, I think folding is good here though.

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