Hero (BTN): 112.66 BB
SB: 165.02 BB (VPIP: 12.50, PFR: 12.50, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 24)
BB: 94.86 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 6)
UTG: 101.5 BB (VPIP: 29.17, PFR: 26.39, 3Bet Preflop: 8.70, Hands: 72)
MP: 72.44 BB (VPIP: 24.44, PFR: 17.78, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 47)
CO: 127.9 BB (VPIP: 30.77, PFR: 30.77, 3Bet Preflop: 33.33, Hands: 14)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K Q

fold, fold, CO raises to 2.5 BB, Hero calls 2.5 BB, SB calls 2 BB, fold

Flop: (8.5 BB, 3 players) 4 8 2
SB bets 8 BB, fold, Hero?

I realise this isn't a very exciting spot but looking to improve all aspects of my game and wasn't sure what the best course of action was. Any insight appreciated. What do we do if a King or Queen or hits on the turn?

preflop is 3bet or fold, never call

if he pots again OTT I'd fold

in what universe is fold > call vs a 30% opening range...

Yeah, must raise pre (fold to 4b).

As played, call flop. Heart or K or Q turn, I would call, or bet if checked to. Blank turn, checkkkkkkkkk!

yeah, on 14h sample

uhh you dont have to raise/fold pre

calling is fine pre flop. 3b is prolly better though

I usually 3-bet pre and I never call, but I don't think it's terrible vs that size.

Post flop, just call and realize your equity in position (or bluff if villain gives up). Don't play a huge pot if you improve. e.g. If you turn a queen and villain bets again, just call. Vs a (large) triple barrel, you probably fold anything worse than 2 pairs, as you'll have some sets and flushes.

First off, I can't believe I am commenting on such an Uninteresting hand

But anyway...

I understand there is a great deal of content out there that promotes "3bet or fold" preflop strategies, and this makes sense since it is usually the superior play and it simplifies our strategy/ability to construct ranges, which is a big plus for training sites attempting to teach a complex game to new players.

That being said, I'm not a big fan of limiting ourselves to hard and fast rules like "never call preflop." It's not illegal to call sometimes and KQ is actually a good candidate to call here. The open is under 3x, giving us a better price on our call and less money to win with our semi-bluff. Calling keeps in hands we dominate (KJ, QJ, KT, QT, K9s, Q9s, etc.) and it can be pretty profitable to have a dominating hand IP. When 3betting our Villain will mostly fold the hands we dominate but certainly continue with the hands that dominate us.

That's not to say it is bad to 3bet. Obviously this will have it's advantages as well (e.g. immediate fold equity, initiative in the hand, shutting out potential squeezers in the blinds, a simplified overall strategy as discussed above).

Point being that it is helpful to consider a play's merit and possibilities of different styles of play being effective rather than automatically going into a "call=bad" mindset and this, I believe, applies to the broader idea of not automatically dismissing the legitimacy of plays that are different from what we normally make.

Sorry for the long digression.

It's funny that about 4 years ago or so I said in a thread that I usually 3bet or fold this hand in these positions for all the normally accepted reasons, but back then there was a pretty vocal group saying how you need a flatting range and KQ needs to be in it... blah blah blah.

I think still think it should usually be a 3bet or fold unless you are flatting for various explo reason, fish in the blinds, etc.

Thanks for all the feedback. To those that would either 3b/fold. Do you also only 3b / fold pocket pairs and suited connectors?

There are debatable reasons to flat small PP and sc’s in the first place, so, I will say not always.

Here is the reason the KQo is a must raise. It is because it blocks KK QQ AK and AQ. But, this is not enough info. If you raise and villain Just calls, not 4b, then now it is most likely that you will be not dominated by flopping a top pair. Flopping top pair with KQ is usually a strong hand, so you want a bigger pot, and you want to be more sure that top pair is good.

Same goes for AQ, must raise/fold AQ for the same reason, imo.

I cannot stress how the 3b/fold thing is incorrect...

There are a million reasons why flatting this is better than folding....

from GTO perspective, it's call or raise, never fold, but mostly 3b so I just simplify it by 3betting it always. With that being said, I feel like all discussion what's better and way is kind of unnecessarily since both plays have similar EV and you can just play this hand how it better suits your range.

Since this is micro stakes forum, I feel like rake is going to be higher and therefor 3bet option looks better and should show higher EV

100% behind the 3b pre, but the fold argument is wrong even in high rake environment
thats it really

I flat some of my middle pairs (fold the lowest ones), and 3-bet some of the lowest SCs, but fold the middle ones. The bulk of my light 3-bets in this spot are Axs and KQs.
I generally put AJo and KQo in the "unnecessary calls" category and would usually 3-bet or fold them. I like flatting AQo and KJs instead, as that works in the context of my strategy (board coverage, blah blah). Other people always 3-bet AQ, so flatting KQo helps them 'defend' on Kxx and Qxx flops. It would probably be a "bad" strategy to flat AQo, KQo, and AJo, as then you have loads of offsuit junk in your flatting range that doesn't really serve much purpose.

No one is saying fold. It is 3b and fold to 4b if anyone 4bets.

This seems incorrect, at least at the micro-stakes. Maybe at higher limits AQ 4bets often but in the games I play (mostly 50NL on Ignition) AQ flats almost always. I'm actually surprised at how often the pool flats AK, though they mostly 4bet.

Say Villain always calls AQ and always 4bets AK. We have 12 combos that dominate us. As far as the hands we dominate, QJo and KJo almost certainly will fold, QJs and KJs certainly call, KTs and QTs mostly call but nitty players will sometimes fold these OOP.

So to me it appears that when we 3bet and get called villain still has slightly more hands that dominate us than hands we dominate.

We are not seeking to dominate hands with KQ. Yes, AQ will flat often, but that is not a strong position for that player, being oop and holding AQ.

We are reducing drastically the total combos that dominate us.

We are simply seeking to fold to a 4b from AA, KK, QQ, and AK. These are monsters that will gobble up our chips.

So we are 3betting to get Villain to turn his strong hands face up with a 4bet, so we can fold those spots to avoid negative implied odds situations?

To be clear, I'm Not saying this I disagree or agree with this logic, just wanting to be sure i'm understanding.

Among other reasons, yes, your statement is correct.

Imo.

Stakes? The worse the blinds are and the less squeeze happy the more likely I am to flat. From a GTO perspective 3-betting might make you less exploitable but not really sure why we need to care what might be a theoretically good play against strong opponents at the micros. Also the domination argument makes sense kind of but then you need to take into account that CO is also raising stuff we dominate but will fold to a 3-bet, and the blinds have a price to call with more stuff we dominate while being in position.

Not saying 3-betting is bad, but don't see it as clearly superior to calling in a vacuum. Obviously not folding KQo on the button to CO raise.

KQo is basically two kickers. You don’t have an ace, a pocket pair, or two suited cards.

Winning pre is a fantastic result.

This example is a good one for general preflop theory, worth spending the effort to understand.

3bet or calling pre is fine depending on your strategy, folding seems like a disaster. Unless villain is an ultra nit there are tons on hands they are opening that you dominate, and you have position.

Well thanks Master Zhao, I will meditate on that, but CO should be opening hands we dominate, and blinds at micros don't squeeze with GTO frequency so a flat still seems like an option at the moment to me. CO getting 3-bet and having an easy fold with QJ, KJ, KT, QT, etc. instead of having to play a dominated hand OOP is also a good result for him. If the blinds are bad having to fold their junk instead of getting to play a weak hand OOP against a better player is also pretty good for them.

I don't remember the last time I flatted(or folded) KQo BTN v CO to a 2.5x open.