Dear 2+2 Community

I realise this might be a totally pointless post as it deals with Poker Gaming Apps, not real-money poker. But, as there are certain people who do play in such a manner, I thought I'd write this post.

Since online poker was made illegal in Australia, other than playing with play money on PokerStars, I thought I'd give a few poker gaming apps a go. The one I've been playing mainly is Poker Heat. (I didn't make much of an impact on online poker. And I lost a lot of play money earlier on as I just called every all-in with any two cards in the KO Hyper. But, since I knuckled down and decided to play proper, I'm back in the black. You can see the progression of that stat on here. http://pokerprolabs.com/thepokerlama/pokerstars.net )

I'm not too shabby in my local poker league, either. Certainly, a big fish in a small pond and by no means do I claim to be the next Fedor Holz. But, I have a pretty solid poker fundamentals and strategies which I was able to put to good use in the local live poker scene.

But, I'm getting destroyed on Poker Heat. I started with $25,000, got it up to $1,900,000...only to have just around $100,000 again.

And a very few of those are losing on a cooler hand like AA vs KK or classic flips like AK vs QQ/JJ. The rest are...just cancer.

Basically, nothing works. Playing in position doesn't work. Playing LAG doesn't work. TAG certainly doesn't work. I can raise 20x BB, or even 30x BB or even go all-in pre for 200x BB... I'll get people calling with 64o, 72o, 85o, J2o, Q4o, K3o and win. Regardless of the size of the raise, most will call pre-flop with any two cards. It's impossible to put them on a range. In live poker, I could raise with AK, get two callers and flop 245, and I can safely assume the flop has totally missed their calling range as well. But, not so on these gaming apps.

One that I clearly remember is raising with QJ on the button and flopping KQ3. It checks to me, I c-bet with mid-pair. Everyone calls me. KQ3T. Being open-ended as well, I double barrel. Two calls. KQ3T2. By now, everyone is pretty much pot-committed. I triple barrel. Those two call. One has 44s, the other 32. Mind you, I'm betting 2x 3x pot as betting 1/2 or 1/3 pot will just have everyone calling everything.

The other one is me raising 10xBB with 98s from the button. AKQ. All diamonds. I c-bet. Only one calls and checks the AKQJ turn. All diamonds. I double barrel and get called. 2 of spades complete the Ad Kd Qd Jd 2s board. I push all-in. I get snap called by someone holding 42 of clubs.

The last one I'll mention is me raising with 52 from the button. Flop KK4. Checks to me. I c-bet. I get called. The turn is KK4Q. I double barrel. The person calls and checks. KK4QQ. I triple barrel. I get called by 62.

I mean, I concede that I've made some questionable raises, even from the button. But, those are just a few examples of people winning those pots off me. Either they are poker gods or there is absolutely no thought put into how and what they play. Surely 42 of clubs cannot be good on AKQJ diamond board. Surely 6 high cannot be good on KK4QQ board.

In all those cases, there are absolutely zero reasons for them to call to the river. But, there is also a zero fold equity, I've found. If they hit, even if it is the absolute bottom pair, they never fold.

But, the place is full of people 4-betting with Q3o and calling off 5-bet shove with that...and winning. My last huge pot was against a donk that was running like a god, who called my 5-bet shove with K3o against my AAs. K6K6Q was the board.

Again. Perhaps, a totally pointless post. But, an interesting exercise knowing that is exactly how some people play in my local league.

Most of players in Poker Heat have pre-flop calling rate of 70~80%, yet will raise or bet out only 5~10% of the time. Extremely loose and extremely passive.

Playing against such players are what a poker player's wet dreams are made of. But, you'd be surprised how often they end up getting there against you. Perhaps it's the design in the software to just make people lose chips so you end up buying more chips? After all, with no real-money rake, these apps must make their money somehow...

The variance and swings are huge. I could be up 10x the starting stack in 10 minutes, and lose that equally as fast. Even when I raise 20xBB with AA, when the whole table calls and I flop T53 rainbow, even then my AAs look extremely weak. And I have had my AA and KKs cracked by someone holding T3o flopping two pair.

It's catch 22. I raise normal 2~3xBB, the whole table calls. I raise 10~20xBB, two or three call anyway.

I know the whole Dunning-Kruger Effect dictates that if I cannot dominate a field of total donks, I cannot do any better against proper poker players. But, would that really necessarily be the case given just how I was donked out time and time again in Poker Heat and even WSOP app?

Again, I apologise for the rather pointless post, but any thoughts would be appreciated as this has some relevance to how some total fish play in the local live poker scene.

Move up to where they respect your raises.

Sorry, couldn’t resist...

Also, I don’t mean to be that guy, but some of your plays look a bit suspect. Not wild about double barrelling second pair three ways for example. If people call a 20bb raise when you have AA then I’m ok with that. Especially if it sometimes goes three way, you’ll get sucked out on a fair bit. If you genuinely believe and have the statistical evidence to suggest the app/site is rigged then stop playing on it. But I’d wager it’s more likely run-bad/selective memory here. Otherwise you must know that you’ll crush this pool by playing a hyper exploitative game of under-bluffing and piling it in with your value. It might take a while for the variance to even out but that’s the game isn’t it?

Man I don’t like how you played the 98s hand. Why are we raising 10 bbs pre? Why are we bluffing with zero equity multiway? We have an amazing implied odds hand against the player pool you describe. Just raise a normal size and give up this flop. Pick some selective semi bluffs on the right boards and heap in the money if we make a nutted hand. Easy game. If we bluff too many combos we actually get exploited by loose passive fish who call down with trash.

Do feel your pain re online poker in Aus so apologies if I come across harsh above. I’d personally not waste my time on these apps but of course that’s your call. But if you carry on, stop bluffing (more or less) and just pile in the money when you have a good hand. The players you describe really have the easiest strategy to play against. Hope the live play goes well

Okay, so shove the top x% of your range and fold the rest. Enjoy the 100BB/100 winrate.


Check flop, then check turn as played, then check river as played.


See above comment. Why are we betting air on an AKQr board on a platform where nobody can fold a pair or draw?


Fold PF. Again, why are we triple barreling air when we know our opponents are incapable of folding ever?





So stop bluffing.


And that's just variance. You lose 1/9 times. It happens.


lol


See my first point about open shoving PF.


^^


Yeah, more than likely. If you can't beat a field where the average player is 80/5 and is literally incapable of folding a pair, then you're not going to beat any game where people are playing relatively more correctly. Could it be variance? Sure. But based on some of the hands you've posted, it's probably not.

Then value bet them with all value hands, and never bluff. Easy game.

Over a large sample? Then it's rigged, never play them anymore. Over a small sample? Then keep doing what you're doing, you'll be a huge favorite when you're all in preflop, and will win more than you lose. The lost pots won't matter, with good bankroll management, which leads us to the next point :

You probably don't have good bankroll management. What limit where you playing when you got to 1.9m, and when did you drop down?

Edit : Against players you describes as "Never folding", you raise 5-2, and 3 barrels without hitting anything? Did you put them on a range of exactly 2-3, 2-4, and 4-3?
If they're never folding anything, you need to always have the best range. I'm not sure how you think that's possible when you're holding 5-2.

But, I have a pretty solid poker fundamentals and strategies which I was able to put to good use in the local live poker scene.


Why are you not using the fundamental and strategies in the online play money? It must work.
Unfortunately none of posted hands shows strategy, either you lack the fundamentals or just dont stick to them online. If you just dont pay attention because it is play money and opponents are weak, you could stop playing, bad habits from online would influence your live game. I mean your live game can go worse due to playing careles online.

Play money is the easiest game to beat. So yes be sure to beat that first unless you are prepared to lose real money.

I'll just echo the thoughts of others here. Just stop bluffing. Even if you think the board missed them completely, just concede it. Wait until you hit and then bet relentlessly. That's how you beat opponents like the ones you are describing.

You asked for advice so I'll give you mine. When I first started out, I thought the same way you do. I thought that the reason I couldn't beat NL2 or NL5 was because my play was too sophisticated for that level. I moved up to NL10 and had the same results and the same thoughts. I moved up to NL25, same results. I finally started to look at what I was doing, I got help from some real good players, I read forums such as this one and I realized that I had a lot of flaws in my game and my thought processes. I went back to the drawing board and rebuilt my game from the ground up and the results eventually came. The hands that you posted here show some lack of fundamentals and poor decision making. The truth is that you should be able to crush them if they are as bad as you say they are. Work on your patience and play off of your opponent's strengths and weaknesses.

Thank you wonkydonk

It does suck that I can't play proper online poker anymore. A sort of blessing in disguise at the same time though, as it has freed up A LOT of time for me. Haha.

I've gone and deleted the app as it did truly seem like a waste of time.

Thank you James BJ James

Perhaps, the bluffs were too loose on my part in the hands I've described above. But, they were just a selection of few hands where the thought process of the villains were either just out of this world or none existent.

Usually, at least from my experience, in a live poker setting, after a 3 or 4-bet PF raise, you're usually heads-up. Post-flop, the play will become heads up as those with total air, unless intent on bluffing the pot will fold. Playing nearly every hand 5-handed against those who will call anything with air just proved to be far too volatile.

In any case, I've gone and deleted the app and decided to spend my time better doing more productive things.

True true. Thankfully, I'm almost entirely tournament player where real money is concerned.

My nearest casino is too far from where I live and there are no other cash games on offer anywhere else in Australia. I'm sure there are some underground venues. There is one in my town...but I have to be Italian and the joint is run by the mafia... Haha.

The handful of times I played cash games at the casino, they were on $1/$3 tables. I found all of the times exceptionally easy. Haven't tried the higher stakes yet.

Thanks Shamway

I did use them. And it did work...initially.

I think there is a lot of truth in what you've said.

I eventually found myself calling/raising with hands I won't even dream of doing so in live poker. I guess I was effected by and tilted by people calling my 5-bet AK shove with 63o and getting there, time and time again.

On that app, particularly, even if I shoved my entire stack PF, I am guaranteed to be called by at least 3 people most of the time. K2, J4, Q6, 75, you name it. People will call.

I guess, people are not playing poker, per se, on there. Maybe they're just on there to have a good time and going all-in with whatever is a form of entertainment for them. And in many ways, I'm an idiot for getting all serious about some poker gaming app.

As you said, I did feel it was impacting my live game as I began calling way too many hands pre-flop and chasing too many draws. I've gone and deleted the app now.

After going up to 1.9m, I moved up in stakes where the starting stack is 125,000 instead of 25,000. Blinds are 1k/2k.

Even with 1.9m, that is really only about 15 losses away from going bust.

Most of the losses incurred on pre-flop and post-flop all-ins.

Even with 1k/2k, most will raise to 25k/30k pre-flop. And once the entire table calls, the next move left is check/fold/shove.

The losses incurred when I 3-bet shove them all-in with the premium hands, or put them all-in post flop with the best hand. People will call with all sorts of junks anyway.

It was a good lesson on variance and how fragile even the two two or top set can be when faced with 4 other callers.


The 5-2 hand was just used as an example as the sort of calls I saw on there. I mean, me triple barrelling with 5-high was bad as well. But, even to this day, it is rather unfathomable how someone could call, OPP, with 6-high on that board, thinking his 6 high is good.


Anyway, I did manage to get my 100,000 back up to over 2 million. But, just deleted the app as it seemed an awful waste of time. I did feel the whole "Well, if these people can go all-in with 73o pre-flop and come out on top, I might as well too" thought process creeping in. I know, long term, that is an extremely -EV play. And if a data of their bankroll was available, I'd probably see such players going bust every few hands, until they get free playmoney after a few hours.

So, in many ways, I've been clinging on just a number of particular hands played by a number of very loose players playing bingo.

You can still play on america’s card room or ignition, i think there might be a few other options too

If villains never fold, then never bluff.

If they call your open shoves with crap hands then open shove for value when you get a top hand and fold otherwise.

If you can't beat play money games you have serious holes in your game.

Players at play money tables AND at microstakes (probably up till 25NL+) are giving away money. They call too light, they make ridiculous bluffs with complete air, they get to the river with any kind of draw and fold when they miss, they fold waaaaay too much to 3bets preflop, or they 3bet too often and fold to 4bets, or they continue on 80% of flops and check fold the turn, or don't defend their BB enough, or defend too much....

The trick is to work out what the villains are doing wrong and then use that against them. If you're having trouble with play money, then maybe poker isn't for you.