+1

The happens quite alot that people actually have no idea how to play a spot and just rely on stats to make "exploitable" plays that end up just being random button clicking.

I.E. even after Posting this hand hero still does not know how a good flop strategy in this spot would look like. So i would rather use my time to study how to play a 882tt flop vs an IP flatter than have wet dreams about his wtsd

You should be very careful about listening to people who offer very specific and definitive advice such as this based upon a limited amount of generalised statistics. There's a reason the authors of scientific literature are always suggesting, inferring, and implying things based upon statistics rather than making definitive statements. There's absolutely no way you can make that statement based upon that statistic alone - in fact I'd say it was absurd to even try.

Bloody ****, I got so much Flak over this hand it's frustrating, at a community that's supposed to help each other...? I mostly got passive-aggressive criticism, most without offering any value as to X+Y=Z, (with 3 or 4 well articulated exceptions) and condescending replies. The fact I countered some arguments lead me to doing some more research, and hopefully some other players might have done it too. That's how adults learn!

I don't play every hand like this QTo isn't in my UTG range, it's an interesting spot (I least I thought it was), I might have played poorly in some aspects, in many people's opinions, but it can't be 100% bad. I still believe river is fine and even the reason I OR PF too, which is irrelevant to the hand at this moment.


You have commented on the hand 3 times, never once bothering to answer any of the original questions. I don't know who you are, maybe you're a much better player than I am (please don't give in to the temptation of the obvious cliché joke I set up for you), which then would be interesting to actually hear your opinion, say, if you misclicked twice and found yourself on this river with this bluff-catcher, only with the stats to read into.

I believe you're right, he does go to SD, which is incongruent with his high W$SF and WWSF.

Only today I revisited this ~35 stat. At the time of the hand, I folded over his low CB (I know, irrelevant to this hand, but stats of an Honest player) + his W$SD (extremely high) and personal notes: He had previouly flat low PP OOP, call one barrel vs missed overcards (Q high flop) + missed obvious river bets with TPGK. When I'd double barrel him before IP (other table), he'd fold turn to an obvious PP he'd flat, say, from SB.



I might be way off my reads, will get some other opinion in other forums and try to improve it, but it's certainly some stats overlooked by many.

For what it's worth, the river is almost certainly a fold versus all but the most idiotic players.

I think i gave you valueable advice.
dont bet flop with this hand. ( x/f )
The betsize used on this boardtexture is very bad.
Care lese about the stats. And worry more about playing the hand correct. If you dont like that advice that is fine.

I think this hand belongs squarely in your give up range preflop, flop, and turn.

If your reads are correct then wouldn't villain be quite capped? I would expect an "honest player" to raise out all their trips+ before the river. So what does that leave in their flatting range? Maybe some pocket pairs, missed flushdraws, and a bit of Qx? I don't see how an "honest player" would be nutted OTR after calling twice.

I think you're right. Going through the thread again I've realised I misread/misjudge some of the stats.

You sure don’t take any criticism well do you? Lol
People are here to help and battling them sure isn’t gonna improve your delusional poker game.

And to offer advice. Fold pre. C/f flop, c/f river. Also don’t play so much based off what you think other players are doing and focus on playing good poker and ranges. Even if Btn and bb are bad does going 3 ways with QTo sound like a profitable situation? (It’s not) unless they’re mega whales.

Another piece of advice is be grateful that other players are trying to help you and realize that there are a few guys here who are much better at poker than you are. Instead of arguing and defending your plays . If you’re so sure you’re right don’t post, just play.

Yeah I guess I was in the wrong. Got super excited about learning the new stats. Played more hands vs villain, he did turn out to be more like a calling station, never folding to 3B OOP and all that.

Hands up and thanks for all the help.

To be fair, I don't think he was upset by the criticism of how he played the hand. I think he was more bothered by the comments which essentially translate to "do X" or "do Y" and the comments akin to "you have no idea what you're doing" without ever providing an explanation of WHY doing X or Y is beneficial. Personally, I think this is a fair point to bring up and it certainly gets frustrating. Sadly, this type of "advice" is rife on this forum. Furthermore, arguing and defending your plays is perfectly fine because it allows both parties to get a perspective on the other's thought process which can benefit both parties in very obvious ways - the more you understand the other perspective, the more both parties learn usually. The problem comes when neither party is prepared to learn or compromise their position, which clearly isn't the case in this thread. In fact, I think taking information as gospel when no explanation is provided is probably the most detrimental thing you can do - it doesn't help you to understand better at all. Advice which offers absolutely no explanation is about as useful as learning the latin name of trees, and you certainly shouldn't be blindly grateful of it. That's ridiculous.

i disagree with that. but i think different players here have different expectations of what to get out of a post in this forum.

so i.e. my initial advice was betting flop is bad and the betsize is worse. i do not need to give any explanation to make my advice more useful than learning the latin names of trees, because OP knows now that he has a leak in that spot and can study it. It is not my job to explain or teach poker. i am not his coach. I am just a better player and pointing in the right direction. at the end of the day it is his job to study and become a better player. some poeple have commented on the fact that his conclusions drawn by his statreads are less than optimal. they dont need to explain why. they are not his coach. brokenstars is a much better player than i am. but he is not my coach. and if a "3word" post of him contradicts everything i think to know about that spot, i go study and figure that s*** out.

so i think if someone wants to have a "discussion" about what to do in a given spot, mostly he will discuss this with people who dont know themselves very well and want to explore that spot. but players who actually "know" are probably less interested in giving extensive explanations because this is not a coaching site. it is a public forum.

personally i would rather have 1 player who is better than me pointing out my biggest leaks so that i can study those leaks and improve, rahter than having 5 players, who are basically just giving random advice based on their gut feeling, commenting and making a mess out of it. but that is just me.

It makes no sense to raise looser when a passive fish will have position on you postflop.

Basically the opposite of every sentence here is correct. The onus is on the newbs asking questions to think *themselves* why the simple post of the superior player/poster is correct, not to argue with them, especially based on extremely flawed thinking loaded with unproven speculation.

My last reply on this thread. I hope some of you are as good at taking stabs at pots than you are at people. Good to hear all this terms 'newbs', 'listen to me and shut up', 'I'm better than you'.

I did take some stabs myself and will try to improve that, even if to ignore some of the stabbing comments. Now, I don't need to qualify myself to a bunch of people on the internet, but I will anyway, I'm a winning live cash player (NL500), making the transition to online (3rd attempt) and did get lost in some stats, realised my mistakes and sure enough will make many others but (hopefully) will get lots of things right too.

But if I'm not allowed to disgree, even when comfronted by the 2nd best player ever to grace us with his presence in this forum, is there even a point in raising discussions? At many hands, there are always different points of views, according to styles, tendencies and other factors. I'm sure my playerpool is way different than those of you who are in the USA and EU.

I thank you all for the contributions and different insights. I got a lot more from this thread than I'd first expected, and did realise my play was bad and, as some had pointed out, villain was a call-station. I hope I can get that read as fast as you guys did. Playing yesterday, I did a lot better already at sticking to game plan.

Respectfully,
Suave