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01-19-2018 , 01:52 AM

Mr Yaba Daba Doo

journeyman

Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 279

...playing out of position... w 77 here was a tricky spot versus these short stackers. How'd I do?

Merge - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (UTG): 145.4 BB
CO: 30 BB (VPIP: 60.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 21)
BTN: 42.3 BB (VPIP: 85.00, PFR: 45.00, 3Bet Preflop: 28.57, Hands: 40)
SB: 149.7 BB (VPIP: 57.50, PFR: 10.26, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 41)
BB: 127.4 BB (VPIP: 23.48, PFR: 15.21, 3Bet Preflop: 4.82, Hands: 267)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB, CO posts penalty blind 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.5 BB) Hero has 7

Hero raises to 4.5 BB, CO calls 3.5 BB, BTN calls 4.5 BB, fold, fold

Flop: (15 BB, 3 players) T

Hero checks, CO bets 5 BB, fold, Hero calls 5 BB

Turn: (25 BB, 2 players) K

Hero checks, CO bets 6 BB, Hero?

CO wins 23.7 BB

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01-19-2018 , 02:06 AM

nonsimplesimon

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 10,011

I'm gonna throw this out there.

Ott ... Normally I don't Donk nd frown on it but I'm thinking maybe the turn is a good place to do it? If he shoves we probably have to call but we have outs at least.

If its a check its a check fold imo.

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01-19-2018 , 02:10 AM

DonkFace77

newbie

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 35

I don't like the initial raise out of position with 77. You need a very specific flop for that hand to play well in a 3 way pot. That aside, the post flop play was questionable.

I think that after raising out of turn and then checking the flop you'd pretty much lost the hand. After checking the flop you called the bet but then folded to the K on the turn. I think its unlikely that the K improved their hand as you were like up against something like JT. Either that or you set him up to bluff you. I think you have to cbet the flop there to get a better idea of where you are

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01-19-2018 , 02:33 AM

BackdoorQuadsDraw

grinder

Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 404

^^^ Oh come on, you fold 77 pre utg? That's bad advice and far too right.

Flop is x/f OP. I know it's tempting as you have your open ender but you suffer heavily from reverse implieds if your jack comes in or if you hit your straight and diamonds come in too. I think the % of times you get two shorties to fold this flop is pretty much 0.

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01-19-2018 , 02:59 AM

Willco

newbie

Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 38

I think 77 is a clear UTG open but I don't understand the 4.5x sizing. Just use 3x or maybe 2.5 if you want. I notice there are 3 players with very fishy stats left to act, but still 77 is too weak to be raising that large. OTF I honestly think we can just c/f. It seems nitty but given CO stats I think villain is probably betting with a weaker value hand rather than a semi bluff. Check call isn't terrible though. Turn is a fold. As stated earlier villain has really passive stats so I think a bet on both streets means we hardly ever have the best hand. The redraw to a straight (that over half the time isn't even the effective nuts) isn't enough for me to call.

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01-19-2018 , 08:56 AM

Ojune

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 5,171

Played fine, now call turn. Don't see what donking and calling a shove accomplishes. Also we have no idea if villain is "passive" or not postflop, all we know is that his range is likely to be very wide, which is an incentive to call.

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01-19-2018 , 10:03 AM

BackdoorQuadsDraw

grinder

Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 404

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ojune

FFS dude you literally should stop posting and should be flagged as a troll.

This is one of the worst ever boards for us. BUT LOL WE HAS OPEN ENDER!! You have a one card draw to the sucker end of the straight, OOP, suffer heavily from reverse implieds and currently have an underpair to the board. We have 4 outs to make a reasonable hand, none of them are clean and even when we hit our hand is practically face up, we are OOP and we will rarely get paid.

And then call turn??? With 4th pair to the board and the same draw? You are literally taking the piss now, like i genuinely think you are trolling at this stage.

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01-19-2018 , 10:28 AM

nonsimplesimon

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 10,011

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willco

I suspect th e 4.5 was meant to be an "isolation raise"

Yeah xf otf is good. Calling and donking is well - for donks.

Dudes is there ever a time and a place to donk bet? The only time I think it's good I presume is for value when we fear that villain will check back. I think most often it is bad as a bluff or for fold equity. All these years I haven't been able to figure that out LOL. Sorry for digressing. Ty

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01-19-2018 , 10:45 AM

simplelessons

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 3,015

+1 to everything BQD said

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01-19-2018 , 11:12 AM

#10

Ojune

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 5,171

Quote:

Originally Posted by nonsimplesimon

donking

Very simple : the one with the stronger range bets in order to get value. You donk when your range improves significantly (to the point where villain will check back a lot) AQ3 Q would be a typical exemple.

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01-19-2018 , 03:57 PM

#11

JamesBJames

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 5,791

PF is too large.

I think I'd c/f flop. It feels a little gross vs. a 1/3 PSB, but we probably don't have the best implied odds and we're OOP, so even if we actually have >20% equity here -- and we more than likely do -- it's really hard for us to realize that equity unless we hit a six.

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01-19-2018 , 04:20 PM

#12

dynamite2006

adept

Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 789

There was a penalty blind in the pot preflop and so the 4.5x raise wasn't as bad as others have said.

We need 16% to call the turn here. More than half of that comes from hitting a 6. I don't see how we can fold given these pot odds.

His sizing is strange as he only has 80% pot left. Wouldn't he just ship it if he really liked his hand?

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01-19-2018 , 04:35 PM

#13

wonkydonk

grinder

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 627

Seems kinda close on flop. X/f to a bigger sizing for sure. CO is clearly a weaker player so our implied odds are better than they would be otherwise. Don’t think calling flop can ever be a huge mistake but I’d lean towards a fold I guess.

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01-19-2018 , 04:56 PM

#14

DonkFace77

newbie

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 35

Quote:

Originally Posted by BackdoorQuadsDraw

^^^ Oh come on, you fold 77 pre utg? That's bad advice and far too right.

I didn't say fold, I said I didn't like a raise there.

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01-19-2018 , 05:40 PM

#15

JamesBJames

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 5,791

77 PF from the HJ is a super easy open. Are you advocating open limping?

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01-19-2018 , 08:12 PM

#16

.isolated

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Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 21,495

Quote:

Originally Posted by nonsimplesimon

Dudes is there ever a time and a place to donk bet? The only time I think it's good I presume is for value when we fear that villain will check back. I think most often it is bad as a bluff or for fold equity. All these years I haven't been able to figure that out LOL.

Yes there is. In mw pots where the pfr's unlikely to bet and you want to bluff or build a pot for value. In hu or mw spots where the flop is unlikely to have his pfrs range but we don't have enough to c/c or c/r but have enough to want to continue with our hand.

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01-20-2018 , 02:31 AM

#17

nonsimplesimon

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Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 10,011

Quote:

Originally Posted by .isolated

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ojune

Thank you for the answers.

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01-20-2018 , 03:06 AM

#18

nonsimplesimon

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Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 10,011

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesBJames

PF is too large.
.

What is a good sizing? Ty

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01-20-2018 , 03:36 AM

#19

2blackaces

journeyman

Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 212

Quote:

Originally Posted by BackdoorQuadsDraw

^^^ Oh come on, you fold 77 pre utg? That's bad advice and far too right.

Honestly, I would not have 77 as part of my standard UTG opening range. I know a lot of people on this forum advocate opening all pp from UTG, I tried it for a while, and I really didn't like it. These lower pp just play so poorly from out of position: We can't continue when we get 3bet. When we get called we almost always flop an underpair, which is a nightmare oop and when we do hit a set villain has us on a strong range so it's hard to get value anyways.

edit: Didn't notice that this hand was the HJ not UTG. In that case I would open, but my point still stands about UTG and I'd love to hear what others think.

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01-20-2018 , 03:50 AM

#20

nonsimplesimon

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Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 10,011

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2blackaces

<66-55

Depends on if there's shortstackers in the blinds and how tight they are. If we have aggressive players yet to act etc.

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01-20-2018 , 03:55 AM

#21

2blackaces

journeyman

Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 212

^^^ Agreed, and that's why I'm saying standard range. Of course I'm adjusting my ranges based on table dynamics, but the table would have to be significantly more passive than normal for me to want to open 77 UTG

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01-20-2018 , 05:16 AM

#22

wonkydonk

grinder

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 627

I fold 22-55 UTG by default. But doesn’t take much for me to open them.

With 77 we’re getting into the territory where we can get to showdown vs worse SDV sometimes. Doesn’t happen often, but we’re also on the right end of set vs set coolers more often than with the smaller PPs. Of course we'll have to x/f fairly often.

Probably doesn’t matter too much at these stakes but we probably also have some board coverage issues if we’re only opening 99+ and good broadways.

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01-20-2018 , 05:26 AM

#23

ItsMyShow

veteran

Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 2,038

Happy with the open pre however i'm questioning the sizing? Such a large open will often polarise villains range to hands that at best we are 50/50 with and more often that not we are facing a board that is not ideal for 77 e.g (Axx). My bet sizing is usually between 2.5-3x bb.

X/F flop

Last edited by ItsMyShow; 01-20-2018 at 05:28 AM. Reason: LOLs at the title POOP

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01-20-2018 , 05:28 AM

#24

wonkydonk

grinder

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 627

CO posted a penalty blind so pre sizing is fine, assuming OP was adjusting for that.

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