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Play a 4bet Pot OOP w/ me. 5NLz 130BBs deep Play a 4bet Pot OOP w/ me. 5NLz 130BBs deep

04-09-2019 , 08:53 AM
Preflop definitely not standard but I like having some Axs in my 4bet bluff range. Stack sizes are also good for a 4bet bluff

Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker HUD and Database Software

NL Holdem $0.05(BB)
CO ($4.23) [VPIP: 0% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 0% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 1]
BTN ($2.17) [VPIP: 0% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 0% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 1]
SB ($2.56) [VPIP: 0% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 0% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 1]
BB ($2.5) [VPIP: 0% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 0% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 1]
HERO ($6.49) [VPIP: 23.7% | PFR: 20.5% | AGG: 33.3% | 3-Bet: 14.1% | Hands: 122993]
HJ ($12.65) [VPIP: 100% | PFR: 100% | AGG: 100% | 3-Bet: 100% | Hands: 1]

Dealt to Hero: 9 A

HERO Raises To $0.12, HJ Raises To $0.29, CO Folds, BTN Folds, SB Folds, BB Folds, HERO Raises To $1.01, HJ Calls $0.72

Hero SPR on Flop: [2.62 effective]
Flop ($2.09): 9 T 6
HERO ?
Play a 4bet Pot OOP w/ me. 5NLz 130BBs deep Quote
04-09-2019 , 08:57 AM
check
Play a 4bet Pot OOP w/ me. 5NLz 130BBs deep Quote
04-09-2019 , 09:01 AM
Well I'd first say we need to give him a 3-bet/flatting range from a 4-bet. I'd typically assume it's relatively tight. Maybe TT-KK, ATs+, KQs, AQo+?

Board: 9h Ts 6c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 55.426% 54.80% 00.62% 29297 334.00 { Ac9c }
Hand 1: 44.574% 43.95% 00.62% 23495 334.00 { KK-TT, ATs+, KQs, AQo+ }

That said, seems like a spot to check. Villain could float with like Axh or Ax or KQs, maybe but we're not getting anything better to fold and still have some decent equity.
Play a 4bet Pot OOP w/ me. 5NLz 130BBs deep Quote
04-09-2019 , 09:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by YouBetIcall
check
Okay easy enough. Next street

Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker HUD and Database Software

NL Holdem $0.05(BB)
CO ($4.23) [VPIP: 0% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 0% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 1]
BTN ($2.17) [VPIP: 0% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 0% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 1]
SB ($2.56) [VPIP: 0% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 0% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 1]
BB ($2.5) [VPIP: 0% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 0% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 1]
HERO ($6.49) [VPIP: 23.7% | PFR: 20.5% | AGG: 33.3% | 3-Bet: 14.1% | Hands: 122993]
HJ ($12.65) [VPIP: 100% | PFR: 100% | AGG: 100% | 3-Bet: 100% | Hands: 1]

Dealt to Hero: 9 A

HERO Raises To $0.12, HJ Raises To $0.29, CO Folds, BTN Folds, SB Folds, BB Folds, HERO Raises To $1.01, HJ Calls $0.72

Hero SPR on Flop: [2.62 effective]
Flop ($2.09): 9 T 6
HERO Checks, HJ Bets $0.75 (Rem. Stack: 10.89), HERO Calls $0.75 (Rem. Stack: 4.73)

Turn ($3.59): 9 T 6 6
HERO Checks, HJ Bets $1.61 (Rem. Stack: 9.28), HERO ?
Play a 4bet Pot OOP w/ me. 5NLz 130BBs deep Quote
04-09-2019 , 09:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Markulous
Well I'd first say we need to give him a 3-bet/flatting range from a 4-bet. I'd typically assume it's relatively tight. Maybe TT-KK, ATs+, KQs, AQo+?

Board: 9h Ts 6c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 55.426% 54.80% 00.62% 29297 334.00 { Ac9c }
Hand 1: 44.574% 43.95% 00.62% 23495 334.00 { KK-TT, ATs+, KQs, AQo+ }

That said, seems like a spot to check. Villain could float with like Axh or Ax or KQs, maybe but we're not getting anything better to fold and still have some decent equity.
I agree check is good. Also protects our AK. It is probably a range check.
Play a 4bet Pot OOP w/ me. 5NLz 130BBs deep Quote
04-09-2019 , 09:14 AM
Hmm turn sucks since we didn't pick up any equity but neither did villain so we're about where we were if villain will barrel turn with his entire range. If he's only doing this with Tx and overpairs though, we're not getting the odds to continue. So the question is, how much air does villain have here and does he check AK/AQ/etc on the turn? And if we do call, are we planning to call any brick river? If not, then now seems like a spot to fold, otherwise we can x/c all the way down.
Play a 4bet Pot OOP w/ me. 5NLz 130BBs deep Quote
04-09-2019 , 09:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Markulous
Hmm turn sucks since we didn't pick up any equity but neither did villain so we're about where we were if villain will barrel turn with his entire range. If he's only doing this with Tx and overpairs though, we're not getting the odds to continue. So the question is, how much air does villain have here and does he check AK/AQ/etc on the turn? And if we do call, are we planning to call any brick river? If not, then now seems like a spot to fold, otherwise we can x/c all the way down.
I think we can still x/c here and fold some rivers. Mainly a J,Q,K river.

4bet pots OOP are rough lol.
Play a 4bet Pot OOP w/ me. 5NLz 130BBs deep Quote
04-09-2019 , 09:24 AM
They really are rough. Playing OOP in general just sucks
Play a 4bet Pot OOP w/ me. 5NLz 130BBs deep Quote
04-09-2019 , 10:09 AM
I like to have some Ax in 4bet bluff range but if you don't have info about Oppo (1 hand) this is very stupid. So fold pre.
Play a 4bet Pot OOP w/ me. 5NLz 130BBs deep Quote
04-09-2019 , 10:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by M1ndGam3
I like to have some Ax in 4bet bluff range but if you don't have info about Oppo (1 hand) this is very stupid. So fold pre.
It's anonymous and hudless, 1 hand is all i am ever going to have.

Stupid because you are scared to play postflop?
Play a 4bet Pot OOP w/ me. 5NLz 130BBs deep Quote
04-09-2019 , 10:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DooDooPoker
It's anonymous and hudless, 1 hand is all i am ever going to have.

Stupid because you are scared to play postflop?
Why do you play hudless? It's nosense..anyway he 3betted mp open so this is not a steal dinamic..moreover it's nl5..this is a game where you need informations to do "particular moves" and without info you should play regular..you are oop and you have a hand that in a 4betted is very week...I think Oppo range could be TT+, sometimes AQs+ so..do you really think you make him fold? Do you think you can exploit everyone? This is not only stupid but even absurd.. it's not about post flop.. it's about informations and without info you have to play regular.
Play a 4bet Pot OOP w/ me. 5NLz 130BBs deep Quote
04-09-2019 , 10:24 AM
Why not just call the small 3b and play a small pot?

Post flop is okay so far. Turn is getting meh. He's leaving a PSB for the river which makes me feel like we're pretty dead and he doesn't mind a call. I think I fold turn.

Last edited by Flpmethntsdlr; 04-09-2019 at 10:30 AM.
Play a 4bet Pot OOP w/ me. 5NLz 130BBs deep Quote
04-09-2019 , 10:25 AM
Please post the entire hand and make us laugh lol
Play a 4bet Pot OOP w/ me. 5NLz 130BBs deep Quote
04-09-2019 , 10:48 AM
Serious question why would you choose this spot of all spots, you raised UTG and were 3bet by MP. I'd just fold it pre. Your 4bet is certainly not folding out AK, AQ or really anything in his value range IMO. given he has position and the stacks are a bit deeper so I am not sure what it accomplishes.
If you called pre and check raised most flops, it can make it really tricky for his TT,JJ and makes them lay down AQ/AK easy if they miss. You'll also keep hands like 9Thh and A5hh in his range assuming they 3bet pre a small % of the time, which again with these positions I don't think they show up with those a ton!
Play a 4bet Pot OOP w/ me. 5NLz 130BBs deep Quote
04-09-2019 , 10:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by M1ndGam3
Please post the entire hand and make us laugh lol
patience. I will
Play a 4bet Pot OOP w/ me. 5NLz 130BBs deep Quote
04-09-2019 , 10:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHero'sJourney
Serious question why would you choose this spot of all spots, you raised UTG and were 3bet by MP. I'd just fold it pre. Your 4bet is certainly not folding out AK, AQ or really anything in his value range IMO. given he has position and the stacks are a bit deeper so I am not sure what it accomplishes.
If you called pre and check raised most flops, it can make it really tricky for his TT,JJ and makes them lay down AQ/AK easy if they miss. You'll also keep hands like 9Thh and A5hh in his range assuming they 3bet pre a small % of the time, which again with these positions I don't think they show up with those a ton!
It's definitely between 4betting and folding. Calling is the worst. If he is bluffing i win automatically, and if he just calls I have initiative.

It's not some ideal spot but you need some 4bet bluffs in your range to balance out your monsters.
Play a 4bet Pot OOP w/ me. 5NLz 130BBs deep Quote
04-09-2019 , 10:55 AM
V didn't even 3x and stacks are deep. I'm defending a lot of my range there. No reason to narrow his range further, imo.
Play a 4bet Pot OOP w/ me. 5NLz 130BBs deep Quote
04-09-2019 , 10:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flpmethntsdlr
Why not just call the small 3b and play a small pot?

Post flop is okay so far. Turn is getting meh. He's leaving a PSB for the river which makes me feel like we're pretty dead and he doesn't mind a call. I think I fold turn.
That is playing right into my opponents hands. I have a marginal hand with reverse implied odds that will never win a big pot OOP without initiative. I'd never call here, 4bet sometimes but mostly fold.

Fold turn? I think that is okay, but what is your range for villain? Don't you think KK/QQ ship preflop?
Play a 4bet Pot OOP w/ me. 5NLz 130BBs deep Quote
04-09-2019 , 10:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flpmethntsdlr
V didn't even 3x and stacks are deep. I'm defending a lot of my range there. No reason to narrow his range further, imo.
You're supposed to defend tighter not looser the deeper you get.
Play a 4bet Pot OOP w/ me. 5NLz 130BBs deep Quote
04-09-2019 , 11:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DooDooPoker
It's definitely between 4betting and folding. Calling is the worst. If he is bluffing i win automatically, and if he just calls I have initiative.

It's not some ideal spot but you need some 4bet bluffs in your range to balance out your monsters.
I understand your first point I just don't see how someone is "bluffing" if they 3bet an utg raise in a fast fold game.
Regarding the bold, your second point, I understand completely that in a regular ring game with normal stat tracking potential this is abundantly clear, you must balance out. But I struggle (and as you can see if you saw my "I'm frustrated with zone" post), no severely struggle with understanding why this concept is the case in zone. I just don't get why we would balance our ranges in an anonymous game, as opposed to just play from a game theory optimal standpoint. You must be making the assumption that a random player/the "average" player in NL5z is 3betting your raise in this exact situation with a range severely wider than AJs+, TT+, right?

tldr, I don't understand the need to balance in anonymous fast fold games
Play a 4bet Pot OOP w/ me. 5NLz 130BBs deep Quote
04-09-2019 , 11:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DooDooPoker
That is playing right into my opponents hands. I have a marginal hand with reverse implied odds that will never win a big pot OOP without initiative. I'd never call here, 4bet sometimes but mostly fold.

Fold turn? I think that is okay, but what is your range for villain? Don't you think KK/QQ ship preflop?
This is the problem with playing against unknowns. We've no idea what his 3b range and 3b/c range look like. We also have no idea what his tiny 3b means. Is he bating you into a 4b because he has AA and only AA? Is he splashy and can defend as wide as 56s to a 4b? I gots no clue.

If you have a hand that plays poorly post flop with reverse implied odds (when an A flops) then the last thing I would pick is a 4b. Stick to the A4,A5s and even the ATs/AJs & AQo can be better selections because it's going to be tougher for V to continue and they play much better post flop.

I'm curious as to what range a SIM would say to flat 3.4 more BBs.
Play a 4bet Pot OOP w/ me. 5NLz 130BBs deep Quote
04-09-2019 , 11:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DooDooPoker
It's definitely between 4betting and folding. Calling is the worst. If he is bluffing i win automatically, and if he just calls I have initiative.

It's not some ideal spot but you need some 4bet bluffs in your range to balance out your monsters.
You said it is anonymous and hudless. If the villain doesn't know you are balancing out your monsters what is the point of doing so? Is this a plus EV play in this particular spot because people tend to fold to 4 bets too much? If so then go for it, but I think the answer is no.

The 3bet is also very small so calling is 100% a viable option.

As played it's a very tough decision by the turn and it sucks being oop. Fold to the turn bet.
Play a 4bet Pot OOP w/ me. 5NLz 130BBs deep Quote
04-09-2019 , 11:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHero'sJourney
I understand your first point I just don't see how someone is "bluffing" if they 3bet an utg raise in a fast fold game.
Regarding the bold, your second point, I understand completely that in a regular ring game with normal stat tracking potential this is abundantly clear, you must balance out. But I struggle (and as you can see if you saw my "I'm frustrated with zone" post), no severely struggle with understanding why this concept is the case in zone. I just don't get why we would balance our ranges in an anonymous game, as opposed to just play from a game theory optimal standpoint. You must be making the assumption that a random player/the "average" player in NL5z is 3betting your raise in this exact situation with a range severely wider than AJs+, TT+, right?

tldr, I don't understand the need to balance in anonymous fast fold games
Balancing and GTO are not opposing each other, they are the same thing.

Opponents 3bet more aggressively in anonymous environments not less. Precisely because they know there are no HUDs.

Not severely wider, but people get out of line and balancing puts them in line.
Play a 4bet Pot OOP w/ me. 5NLz 130BBs deep Quote
04-09-2019 , 11:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flpmethntsdlr
This is the problem with playing against unknowns. We've no idea what his 3b range and 3b/c range look like. We also have no idea what his tiny 3b means. Is he bating you into a 4b because he has AA and only AA? Is he splashy and can defend as wide as 56s to a 4b? I gots no clue.

If you have a hand that plays poorly post flop with reverse implied odds (when an A flops) then the last thing I would pick is a 4b. Stick to the A4,A5s and even the ATs/AJs & AQo can be better selections because it's going to be tougher for V to continue and they play much better post flop.

I'm curious as to what range a SIM would say to flat 3.4 more BBs.
Exactly we don't know, so we that's why we just play our ranges as well as we can. OTT here, he is representing a very narrow range. His super premiums most likely ship preflop so he either has QQ/JJ/a draw or some air ball. That is why I don't think folding turn is the optimal play.

I'm 4betting 16 combos of AKo/6 combos of AA/6 combos of KK/6 combos of QQ at the minimum. I need more than 8 combos of A4s/A5s to bluff. Even ATs/AJs only gets me to 16.

A9s is the next best Ace after A5s and A4s.
Play a 4bet Pot OOP w/ me. 5NLz 130BBs deep Quote
04-09-2019 , 11:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by recondite7
You said it is anonymous and hudless. If the villain doesn't know you are balancing out your monsters what is the point of doing so? Is this a plus EV play in this particular spot because people tend to fold to 4 bets too much? If so then go for it, but I think the answer is no.

The 3bet is also very small so calling is 100% a viable option.

As played it's a very tough decision by the turn and it sucks being oop. Fold to the turn bet.
That is not the purpose of playing balanced. It's a higher EV strategy because we can't know villain's tendencies and he can't know ours. You're assuming information that is impossible to attain in an anonymous/hudless environment, so an unexploitable strategy will always reign supreme.
Play a 4bet Pot OOP w/ me. 5NLz 130BBs deep Quote

      
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