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NL5 - counter attacking a TAG in a tight game NL5 - counter attacking a TAG in a tight game

07-19-2019 , 04:08 AM
Villain is winning aggro multitabling TAG with 20/14/6 over 350 hands
Never seen him fold to flop cbet or even a turn bet.
Always seen him double/triple barrel 2/3 pot by default. He check/called may be thrice on river and lost with TPTK and 2 pair to the fish on SB.

I have seen him slowplay sets and flopped boat etc waiting for others to catch up.

History:
We both were avoiding each other and isolating and targeting the fish at SB.
Soon everyone started folding and we were playing against each other.

questions:

1) should i tighten up more or loosen up my hand range? Is ATs on BTN a fold pre against his range?

2) How should I counterbalance my open raise and calling range vs this guy?
I cannot keep avoiding good players otherwise I will not improve.



*****************sample hand -

On a paired board, he will have may be 2 high cards and nothing most of the time. His betting looks like TT+. I knew what he was doing but I simply could not stand the barrage

I plugged his range for a CO open - does this seem logical ?



I plugged in this range vs my cards - seems I am beat 70-30



But most of the time he has air






    Poker Stars, $2/$5 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

    SB: $1,186.55 (237.3 bb)
    BB: $909.79 (182 bb)
    UTG: $255.79 (51.2 bb)
    MP: $601.76 (120.4 bb)
    CO: $538.63 (107.7 bb)
    Hero (BTN): $689.15 (137.8 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is BTN with A T
    UTG folds, MP raises to $15, CO folds, Hero calls $15, SB calls $13, BB folds

    Flop: ($50) 4 9 9 (3 players)
    SB checks, MP bets $35.57, Hero calls $35.57, SB folds

    Turn: ($121.14) 6 (2 players)
    MP bets $86.18, Hero ???


    [/spoil]
    NL5 - counter attacking a TAG in a tight game Quote
    07-19-2019 , 04:20 AM
    Prefer a 3bet pre. Your in position. Position + aggression makes it harder for opponents to play against you, no matter how good they are.

    Flop is fine. Non spade turn is a clear fold.
    NL5 - counter attacking a TAG in a tight game Quote
    07-19-2019 , 04:24 AM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by 291
    Prefer a 3bet pre. Your in position. Position + aggression makes it harder for opponents to play against you, no matter how good they are.

    Flop is fine. Non spade turn is a clear fold.
    Thanks. I should have thought of 3bet. nice.

    Let's say I 3 bet, he calls (4 bet from him is a clear fold with ATs). The same flop comes. How do you proceed?
    NL5 - counter attacking a TAG in a tight game Quote
    07-19-2019 , 04:35 AM
    Betting very small on a paired board, around 33% of the pot.

    I barrel turn on all spades and most broadways (K, Q, J) and size up on broadways.

    On this specific turn I probably check as don't really expect him to fold a better hand than A10 at this point.
    NL5 - counter attacking a TAG in a tight game Quote
    07-19-2019 , 04:46 AM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by 291
    Betting very small on a paired board, around 33% of the pot.

    I barrel turn on all spades and most broadways (K, Q, J) and size up on broadways.

    On this specific turn I probably check as don't really expect him to fold a better hand than A10 at this point.
    Thank you
    NL5 - counter attacking a TAG in a tight game Quote
    07-19-2019 , 04:59 AM
    that's not TAG imo, that's nit, he rarely raise, so therefor it's normal that he hits flop more often and can be more aggressive.
    vs him I'd open quite wide and try to steal as much as posible
    NL5 - counter attacking a TAG in a tight game Quote
    07-19-2019 , 06:10 AM
    6% 3bet is not aggro.
    NL5 - counter attacking a TAG in a tight game Quote
    07-19-2019 , 07:08 AM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ramonnieflex
    6% 3bet is not aggro.
    the stats are vpip/pfr/aggrression

    his 3 bet range is 4.5%
    NL5 - counter attacking a TAG in a tight game Quote
    07-19-2019 , 07:31 AM
    3bet ATs pre. Full ring same positions and player type, I would cold call only with 88-QQ and AQ. Not cold calling with a weak range, the need to fold a lot vs flop and turn cbets drops considerably in most boards.
    NL5 - counter attacking a TAG in a tight game Quote
    07-19-2019 , 08:34 AM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FazendeiroBH
    3bet ATs pre. Full ring same positions and player type, I would cold call only with 88-QQ and AQ. Not cold calling with a weak range, the need to fold a lot vs flop and turn cbets drops considerably in most boards.
    ok i get it.. my calling range should be stronger than his raising range right?
    can i add 98s+ to my calling range?
    NL5 - counter attacking a TAG in a tight game Quote
    07-19-2019 , 08:46 AM
    Based on the play style you describe calling the flop seems really bad. We know he is going to fire again on the turn and if we aren't going to call him with A-high then we are hoping to hit a pair (~12.7%) so we can call. That's spewing.

    Against these guys that just keep firing postflop we just need to hit and let them do their thing and just casually keep flipping a chip into the pot everytime they bet.
    NL5 - counter attacking a TAG in a tight game Quote
    07-19-2019 , 08:55 AM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dynamite2006
    Based on the play style you describe calling the flop seems really bad. We know he is going to fire again on the turn and if we aren't going to call him with A-high then we are hoping to hit a pair (~12.7%) so we can call. That's spewing.

    Against these guys that just keep firing postflop we just need to hit and let them do their thing and just casually keep flipping a chip into the pot everytime they bet.
    Folding Ace high, 2 overs and backdoor nut flush draw on a paired flop is very weak. Basically means your folding every non pair hand which is probably overfolding. Against someone who is barreling very often (presumably with too much of their range) Ace high also has a fair amount of SDV.

    It's hard to make a pair, our equity is more than good enough to call a cbet.
    NL5 - counter attacking a TAG in a tight game Quote
    07-19-2019 , 08:58 AM
    I used to think calling with SCs specifically vs fish would be fine, but seems it´s not, so I think vs a nit/tag it should be bad. Also, if your range vs him is accurate, you´ll be dominated vs his A9, A8, K8 etc everytime you flop a pair and he takes aggressive lines. Or at least you be frequently facing tough decisions with marginal hands.

    Having 76s and/or 65s in your light 3bet range seems better imo. You have fold equity preflop (most of the ev should come from this one I guess, not postflop), and postflop it should be fairly easy to play vs a narrower range, and less domination problems then having bigger cards imo. Either flop a big hand or big draw, or fold vs aggression. Personal opinion obv but I think that´s the reason snowie chooses those combos instead of 98s (I play a lot vs it lol )

    Yes about your calling range having to be stronger. Plug the same ranges for villain, tighter pf cold calling ranges for you, and a play a little bit with diferent flop textures on equilab. See who has the equity advantage in a lot of spots

    Last edited by FazendeiroBH; 07-19-2019 at 09:10 AM.
    NL5 - counter attacking a TAG in a tight game Quote
    07-19-2019 , 09:13 AM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by 291
    Folding Ace high, 2 overs and backdoor nut flush draw on a paired flop is very weak. Basically means your folding every non pair hand which is probably overfolding. Against someone who is barreling very often (presumably with too much of their range) Ace high also has a fair amount of SDV.

    It's hard to make a pair, our equity is more than good enough to call a cbet.
    My advice to fold the flop is based strictly on the specific reads OP has about the villain. I'm never folding that against an unknown but when we are facing someone we know will be firing every street which is what he described then we either have to commit to our SDV with A-high (which is viable by the way) or just wait until we have more SDV to call down with. Calling and hoping for backdoor draws to come in or to hit 6 outs just doesn't make sense in this case, imo.
    NL5 - counter attacking a TAG in a tight game Quote
    07-19-2019 , 05:20 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dubakkur2
    Thanks. I should have thought of 3bet. nice.

    Let's say I 3 bet, he calls (4 bet from him is a clear fold with ATs). The same flop comes. How do you proceed?
    Whether or not you would fold ATs to a 4bet would depend more on his sizing as ~300 hands isn't enough to knock you out our standard of playing approximately GTO preflop.

    If you 3bet you would have been in a much better spot with an identical flop. It would likely be heads up and you would have position on him, and he'd likely check to you. 1/3 pot cbet with range would be standard. The rest of the hand would depend on what he does after you do that.

    I'm assuming you are ultra-rich since you are playing 500NL as a complete newb regfish (no offense intended, I'm trying to get you to see reality here). Or I hope you are anyways because I think it is extremely likely that you will lose your entire roll playing the way you do versus the best players in the world.
    NL5 - counter attacking a TAG in a tight game Quote
    07-19-2019 , 06:54 PM
    I prefer the call. When you 3-bet and get called or raised, plug THAT into Equilab. It's ugly. Start with the range you provided above, and remove the hands that fold to the 3-bet. I think you will not like the result.

    When you call, you retain that same pfr range and are not in terrible shape. Based on bet size otf with this flop texture, I think you are up against pp a lot. But I may be wrong....

    Why are there zero pairs and zero pockets?...
    NL5 - counter attacking a TAG in a tight game Quote
    07-19-2019 , 07:21 PM
    Pre I would mix between flat and 3b, mostly flat

    Flop I would probably just fold. The fact is, he likes to barrel and has a range advantage, so we're just gonna get blown off our hand a ton. I'd rather just trap or have something to call multiple streets with.

    You can float but obviously given what you think about him you need to do something somewhere and not just fold, that's literally burning money
    NL5 - counter attacking a TAG in a tight game Quote
    07-19-2019 , 08:46 PM
    ATs is a bluff 3bet, so obv the main goal here is to get a fold, not a call. His calling range oop should be very narrow, only pps. Maybe TT-QQ or JJ-KK idk. Vs a 4bet, should be villain specific whether you have a light 5bet range (if I´m not mistaken snowie shoves A5s and ATs), or you´re just folding.
    NL5 - counter attacking a TAG in a tight game Quote
    07-20-2019 , 11:15 AM
    fold the flop
    NL5 - counter attacking a TAG in a tight game Quote
    07-20-2019 , 01:31 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FazendeiroBH
    ATs is a bluff 3bet, so obv the main goal here is to get a fold, not a call. His calling range oop should be very narrow, only pps. Maybe TT-QQ or JJ-KK idk. Vs a 4bet, should be villain specific whether you have a light 5bet range (if I´m not mistaken snowie shoves A5s and ATs), or you´re just folding.
    So if you call and an A comes otf you just lose because Axs and AJ+ are a huge portion of this raising range, many more than any other unpaired hands.
    NL5 - counter attacking a TAG in a tight game Quote
    07-20-2019 , 02:02 PM
    You’re not playing a big pot after you defend JJ, QQ or w/e if an A comes, for the exact reason you posted Just fold.

    Still if you’re not defending those hands, you’re grossly overfolding vs 3bets. I think there is a good explanation for why we should have a flat range oop vs 3bets but I forgot. Will do some research and post later.

    Last edited by FazendeiroBH; 07-20-2019 at 02:07 PM.
    NL5 - counter attacking a TAG in a tight game Quote
    07-20-2019 , 05:21 PM
    Ehhh I think flatting pre on the button with ATs is gonna be juuuuust fine. Idk why you’re getting berated for that OP

    Anyways yes flop float is gonna be very standard.

    Now on the turn we see villains true mistake coming out: he’s double barreling wider than what is theoretically correct.
    So now u ask yourself, “since v is deviating from an optimal line, how can I exploit this?”
    First, how do u think villain would respond to a raise right here? Would he fold everything but TT+?
    Well if he’s always double barreling 2 overs, but then folding everything other than TT+... then raising any 2 cards should show immediate profits.
    But wait! Don’t stop there because u have another line that’s potentially +EV.
    What if we double float?
    Will he fire again on most rivers??
    If this is the case, then we can float turn expecting a river bet, at which point we just shove all in and collect all those dead chips!
    This is a very sneaky and beautiful counter play to this play style.
    NL5 - counter attacking a TAG in a tight game Quote
    07-20-2019 , 05:28 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hyperknit
    Ehhh I think flatting pre on the button with ATs is gonna be juuuuust fine. Idk why you’re getting berated for that OP

    Anyways yes flop float is gonna be very standard.

    Now on the turn we see villains true mistake coming out: he’s double barreling wider than what is theoretically correct.
    So now u ask yourself, “since v is deviating from an optimal line, how can I exploit this?”
    First, how do u think villain would respond to a raise right here? Would he fold everything but TT+?
    Well if he’s always double barreling 2 overs, but then folding everything other than TT+... then raising any 2 cards should show immediate profits.
    But wait! Don’t stop there because u have another line that’s potentially +EV.
    What if we double float?
    Will he fire again on most rivers??
    If this is the case, then we can float turn expecting a river bet, at which point we just shove all in and collect all those dead chips!
    This is a very sneaky and beautiful counter play to this play style.
    agreeed

    Plus we get to jam spade turns which I imagine is very profitable versus villain

    We also get to bluff when checked to, bluff some better Ace highs/low pp's
    NL5 - counter attacking a TAG in a tight game Quote
    07-20-2019 , 05:43 PM
    Not berating him by any means Just think it plays better as a 3bet than a flat. Big pokersnowie fan/student, so obv I might tend a little bit towards optimal/pseudo gto vs tags and regs in general. But you need a light 3bet range imo, and you obv wants the suited aces. ATs is one of the best
    NL5 - counter attacking a TAG in a tight game Quote
    07-21-2019 , 05:03 AM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hyperknit
    Ehhh I think flatting pre on the button with ATs is gonna be juuuuust fine. Idk why you’re getting berated for that OP

    Anyways yes flop float is gonna be very standard.

    Now on the turn we see villains true mistake coming out: he’s double barreling wider than what is theoretically correct.
    So now u ask yourself, “since v is deviating from an optimal line, how can I exploit this?”
    First, how do u think villain would respond to a raise right here? Would he fold everything but TT+?
    Well if he’s always double barreling 2 overs, but then folding everything other than TT+... then raising any 2 cards should show immediate profits.
    But wait! Don’t stop there because u have another line that’s potentially +EV.
    What if we double float?
    Will he fire again on most rivers??

    If this is the case, then we can float turn expecting a river bet, at which point we just shove all in and collect all those dead chips!
    This is a very sneaky and beautiful counter play to this play style.
    You are right
    I crunched his stats

    I checked his river bet/ fold vs river bet stats. they were 20/60.
    He actually gives up a lot after a double barrel.

    Will try this and let you know

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by 291
    agreeed

    Plus we get to jam spade turns which I imagine is very profitable versus villain

    We also get to bluff when checked to, bluff some better Ace highs/low pp's
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FazendeiroBH
    Not berating him by any means Just think it plays better as a 3bet than a flat. Big pokersnowie fan/student, so obv I might tend a little bit towards optimal/pseudo gto vs tags and regs in general. But you need a light 3bet range imo, and you obv wants the suited aces. ATs is one of the best
    I like the 3 bet line simply because it is aggressive right from preflop vs that particular villain.
    NL5 - counter attacking a TAG in a tight game Quote

          
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