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Old 08-09-2018, 12:13 PM   #1
Dass
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NL2 KQo 2 pairs on wet flop

I really dont know what to do to a 3bet there. Folding seems very tight. When we call it leaves us a pot sized bet and there are many bad turns for us. I'm not happy to stack off cause of a possible straight. What do you think?

PokerStars - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: $2.98 (VPIP: 23.81, PFR: 23.81, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 21)
CO: $2.00 (VPIP: 18.80, PFR: 6.77, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 136)
Hero (BTN): $2.10
SB: $2.81 (VPIP: 17.95, PFR: 14.71, 3Bet Preflop: 9.68, Hands: 757)
BB: $3.26 (VPIP: 17.86, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 4.55, Hands: 115)

SB posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.03) Hero has K Q

UTG raises to $0.06, fold, Hero calls $0.06, fold, fold

Flop: ($0.15, 2 players) Q 9 K
UTG bets $0.05, Hero raises to $0.20, UTG raises to $0.66, Hero ?
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Old 08-09-2018, 12:17 PM   #2
Flpmethntsdlr
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Re: NL2 KQo 2 pairs on wet flop

Fold pre, don't raise flop.

AP call down.
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Old 08-09-2018, 01:35 PM   #3
Dass
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Re: NL2 KQo 2 pairs on wet flop

Call flop even when he cbets only for 1/3 of the pot? I'd like to read not only what to do, but why we should do it. Its not very helpful in that shape.
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Old 08-09-2018, 02:06 PM   #4
AlanBostick
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Re: NL2 KQo 2 pairs on wet flop

Agree with fold preflop.
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Old 08-09-2018, 04:31 PM   #5
Dass
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Re: NL2 KQo 2 pairs on wet flop

Ok, maybe I should fold pre. My ranges arent perfect yet. But it doesnt help me in the post flop situation and it could have happened with a hand I shouldnt fold earlier
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Old 08-09-2018, 05:35 PM   #6
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Re: NL2 KQo 2 pairs on wet flop

I fold pre, but we've established that. It's not horrible calling in position though, this isn't always a fold, but I'm happier if they're suited.

I raise the flop as you have done, and I shove over his 3bet. I don't like to use it as a reasoning, but one of the reasons is that it's 2NL. He has AA and AK in this spot more than he has KK and QQ. There are only 2 K's and 2 Q's left in the deck cos we have 1 of each, and there's 1 of each on the flop. He shows up with 99 sometimes too of course, but guess what, he has a ton of flush draws and straight draws too, and we also split the pot occasionally.
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:21 AM   #7
ArchdukeBarney
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Re: NL2 KQo 2 pairs on wet flop

agree with not flatting pre, but why not 3b bluff the top of our folding range that blocks V's KK/QQ/AK
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:23 AM   #8
Flpmethntsdlr
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Re: NL2 KQo 2 pairs on wet flop

OP, considering utg v btn range, utg is much stronger on this board when both of you should and likely only have 4 straights and utg can still have KK/QQ and you can't. I personally don't have a raising range on this board because most of the hands I do have are going to want to just call. This is of course just my opinion, and I could be wrong or forgetting something.

Did you ask yourself before you raised why you are raising flop, do you know if V has K9,Q9 in his range? Do you think he would 3b a hand like AK or combo draws otf?
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:39 AM   #9
pipimeowmeow
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Re: NL2 KQo 2 pairs on wet flop

Fold pre, easily dominated hand by AK and AQ
Flop u hit top 2 pair, get it in as there are many draws on the board
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Old 08-10-2018, 10:04 AM   #10
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Re: NL2 KQo 2 pairs on wet flop

all in and hope he folds
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Old 08-10-2018, 10:21 AM   #11
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Re: NL2 KQo 2 pairs on wet flop

lol @ fold pre.
We are taking a flop IP with a hand that plays pretty straight forward and makes strong hands. 3bet is good too.

Flop is all in, there are a million draws and we don't block any. We block a big part of the value range and this could just be a worse value hand (AA/AK) trying to charge draws.
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:36 PM   #12
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Re: NL2 KQo 2 pairs on wet flop

Against a TAG's lowjack opening range (something like {77+,ATs+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,AJo+,KQo}) KQo is a 3:2 dog.

If the opener were in the CO, I would consider playing, and very likely 3bet. Against a TAG in the LJ, I would throw it away and wait for a better opportunity.
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:48 PM   #13
THAFOST
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Re: NL2 KQo 2 pairs on wet flop

I like to 3bet pre over just calling

Call on the flop because we block many of his value hands like others said. I donít love a shove over his raise here though because I think you run the risk of folding out his draws.


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Old 08-10-2018, 01:11 PM   #14
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Re: NL2 KQo 2 pairs on wet flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by THAFOST View Post
I don’t love a shove over his raise here though because I think you run the risk of folding out his draws.
LoL no, actually that's the best outcome by far but if villain understand pot odds then he's not gonna fold
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:36 PM   #15
THAFOST
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Re: NL2 KQo 2 pairs on wet flop

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Originally Posted by Ojune View Post
LoL no, actually that's the best outcome by far but if villain understand pot odds then he's not gonna fold


If having him fold his draws is the best outcome by far and he would not fold his draws to a shove because of pot odds, why do you think a shove is the best play here?


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Old 08-10-2018, 01:50 PM   #16
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Re: NL2 KQo 2 pairs on wet flop

exactly we make more money if villain folds his draw resulting in us winning the pot 100% of the time
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Old 08-10-2018, 02:18 PM   #17
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Re: NL2 KQo 2 pairs on wet flop

I usually 3bet pre (although I hate KQo with a passion) and never call. At 2NL vs this action, I would stack off on the flop. Villain definitely has some equity, but he's probably bad enough to stack with AA, AK, and any Pr+draw combo like AQcc/QJcc/QTcc or the AJcc/ATcc combo draws.
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Old 08-10-2018, 02:53 PM   #18
THAFOST
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NL2 KQo 2 pairs on wet flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
I usually 3bet pre (although I hate KQo with a passion) and never call. At 2NL vs this action, I would stack off on the flop. Villain definitely has some equity, but he's probably bad enough to stack with AA, AK, and any Pr+draw combo like AQcc/QJcc/QTcc or the AJcc/ATcc combo draws.


Does villain re-raise here though with AQcc/QJcc/QTcc? Even AK reraising here will only happen 50% of the time I think. Itís definitely possible at this level but I donít think those hands are reraising all that often on this board. My problem with the shove is that we are behind the range of hands I believe he shows up with when he calls. I could be putting him at too tight of a range though.

Edit: I guess if you count the fe from draws that donít always call then the shove is correct?


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Last edited by THAFOST; 08-10-2018 at 03:04 PM.
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Old 08-10-2018, 02:58 PM   #19
Ojune
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Re: NL2 KQo 2 pairs on wet flop

ye I'm not sure we should call pre against 3x
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Old 08-10-2018, 05:30 PM   #20
ArtyMcFly
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Re: NL2 KQo 2 pairs on wet flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by THAFOST View Post
Does villain re-raise here though with AQcc/QJcc/QTcc? Even AK reraising here will only happen 50% of the time I think. Itís definitely possible at this level but I donít think those hands are reraising all that often on this board. My problem with the shove is that we are behind the range of hands I believe he shows up with when he calls. I could be putting him at too tight of a range though.
Now that I've noticed his pre-flop stats (small sample, obv) he's probably not as bad/spewy as some 2NL players, but a theme I often see at that level is the massive overplaying of combo draws (especially pair+draw). It would be weird for a fish to bet tiny with AK and then raise. They normally bomb the flop with TPTK because they are "scared" of draws, so I'm pretty confused by this one, as there's nothing I'd play with that line. (If I wanted to build a pot with a big hand UTG, I'd bomb the flop, or check-raise it).
Since I literally never flat KQo on BTN vs UTG, I don't really know the best line for hero, but I think I'd stack off and then make a potentially very useful note on this villain.
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