Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
NL 25 "I have bigger" NL 25 "I have bigger"

05-08-2021 , 05:45 PM
PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.10/$0.25 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG: $31.14 (125 bb)
MP: $25.34 (101 bb)
CO (Hero): $25.81 (103 bb)
BU: $37.70 (151 bb)
SB: $25.00 (100 bb)
BB: $26.76 (107 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.35) Hero is CO with A J
2 players fold, Hero raises to $0.52, 2 players fold, BB calls $0.27

Flop: ($1.14) 2 4 2 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.33, BB calls $0.33

Turn: ($1.80) T (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.86, BB raises to $3.13, Hero calls $2.27

River: ($8.06) 7 (2 players)
BB bets $5.08, [b][color=#C51F1F]Hero raises to $21.83 (all-in)

Hand against quiete aggressive, IMO spewy reg, he cbets flop like 85% over reasonable semple, floats nearly 60% on turn and stuff like this. Does this play make sense given reads or it's a bit too much?
NL 25 "I have bigger" Quote
05-08-2021 , 07:08 PM
Why are you betting the turn? Your Ace-high may well be ahead, but betting again is just going to fold out J9-type hands and get called by Tx and pocket pairs. Or check-raised and suddenly you're into a high variance situation which was completely avoidable. With only one card to come denying equity isn't so important any more. I'm not sure it's the BB who is being spewy here. Also surely having the Ac makes it a clear fold to the CR?
NL 25 "I have bigger" Quote
05-08-2021 , 07:15 PM
This seems like a value line from V. I can see them showing up with something like 56s here where they float the turn, pick up equity OTT and lead river. IMO the best way to beat spewy players is to wait them out. I think this is “a bit much” and we let them have this one. There are smarter people than me on here, and they may disagree. But that’s my read and my $.02
NL 25 "I have bigger" Quote
05-08-2021 , 07:15 PM
I barrelled turn to put pressure on 4x, 55-99 with intention to bluff river on club runout or k/q
NL 25 "I have bigger" Quote
05-08-2021 , 10:21 PM
If the player is aggressive and spewy, why do you want to bluff back at them? You know it is very unlikely they are folding and you know they will often pay off a better hand.

Personally, I'm checking flop here and then probably calling down if he barrels turn and river. Looking at Equilab you should have a 53-47 range advantage on the river against their standard calling range.
NL 25 "I have bigger" Quote
05-09-2021 , 03:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puddles8554
If the player is aggressive and spewy, why do you want to bluff back at them? You know it is very unlikely they are folding and you know they will often pay off a better hand.

Personally, I'm checking flop here and then probably calling down if he barrels turn and river. Looking at Equilab you should have a 53-47 range advantage on the river against their standard calling range.
Villain is not fish/donkey, just reg with too unbalanced aggro postflop stats, on this particular runout i have way more nut hands, on BB he should 3bet a2s and fold a2o, i expect him to 3bet tt and good club broadways, and i dot really expect turn cr with 77, so he is preety capped in my eyes here, and i think turn cr is turned draw or just ten a lot of the time
NL 25 "I have bigger" Quote
05-09-2021 , 06:40 AM
Like everyone else, not a huge fan of the way you played turn. I don't think you're getting a fold from a single better hand, so I'd say that is a pretty bad result for a bluff. You might actually get called by a few worse hands, but not enough to make this bet worthwhile.

Once you get raised, I'm not sure there is much point in calling other than to bluff a flush runout. You should have a considerable amount of superior air to do this with though, but, if you have a way to limit the number of hands you do this with, and your reads are good, why not. River, you probably have to jam, but if you're getting here with this hand, how many similar hands are you going to have? As having the Kc or Qc might be better, as villain raises a high proportion of Ac pre, are you jamming those as well?

It may well have been a play that was out of line, but fine given reads you have. However, it just seems like a much lower risk (and probably higher EV) play against an overly aggressive villain is to check turn and call a river bet, as you'll be good often enough. If I'm completely honest, it looks like you got tilted by villain's stats. It happens to me at times as well.
NL 25 "I have bigger" Quote
05-09-2021 , 06:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pjj
River, you probably have to jam, but if you're getting here with this hand, how many similar hands are you going to have? As having the Kc or Qc might be better, as villain raises a high proportion of Ac pre, are you jamming those as well?
I dont have that many offsuit aces that range bet flop, bet turn and shove river, it's at-ako, so only like 4 combos with maybe a9o, i have to check flop with my weaker aces asvillains dont fold better aces OTF. Good question if i should take same line with kcq, kcjx and also shove vs river bet, i dont know TBH, proapably not, what i do for sure is that i valuebet J and A clubless runouts, and i have to shove k hi flushes on river too, if i barreled turn with them. Even if we remove villain tendencies (as long as they are not complete donkeys or xtreame nits) then what bluffs we have on river after bet, call of turn cr and facing river bet...

PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.10/$0.25 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG: $31.14 (125 bb)
MP: $25.34 (101 bb)
CO (Hero): $25.81 (103 bb)
BU: $37.70 (151 bb)
SB: $25.00 (100 bb)
BB: $26.76 (107 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.35) Hero is CO with A J
2 players fold, Hero raises to $0.52, 2 players fold, BB calls $0.27

Flop: ($1.14) 2 4 2 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.33, BB calls $0.33

Turn: ($1.80) T (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.86, BB raises to $3.13, Hero calls $2.27

River: ($8.06) 7 (2 players)
BB bets $5.08, Hero raises to $21.83 (all-in), BB folds

Total pot: $18.22 (Rake: $0.82)
CO (Hero) wins $17.40

Villain used almost all time bank, so i expect some big fold from him, but imo villain play just get punished by lack of respect for pre and postflop ranges, you are oop, you have no nuts or even equity advantage, just stop doing donkey raises with marginal draws and 1 pair hands
NL 25 "I have bigger" Quote
05-09-2021 , 08:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramius
I dont have that many offsuit aces that range bet flop, bet turn and shove river, it's at-ako, so only like 4 combos with maybe a9o, i have to check flop with my weaker aces asvillains dont fold better aces OTF. Good question if i should take same line with kcq, kcjx and also shove vs river bet, i dont know TBH, proapably not, what i do for sure is that i valuebet J and A clubless runouts, and i have to shove k hi flushes on river too, if i barreled turn with them. Even if we remove villain tendencies (as long as they are not complete donkeys or xtreame nits) then what bluffs we have on river after bet, call of turn cr and facing river bet...
AK-ATo with Ac is actually 12 combos, and you could also consider including AK-AQo with the Kc or Qc, which would be another 6 combos, then you could also consider another 6 combos of KcJx and KcQx, as well as KxQc and QcJx. However, ATo isn't really a bluff ott, and would be a pretty good bluff catcher otr. So I think that is about 27 potential combos of offsuit hands with a Qc or better you can have, which is too many to turn into bluffs when the flush hits If all your FD take this line (which I don't think they should), you will have roughly 20 combos of flushes, which would probably require ~10-12 bluffs for balance. However, if you're checking back some FDs, then you will have no bluffs to balance, and if you check turn and the draw comes in, you will be unable to bluff efficiently. I think what you need ideally is a way to split these potential bluffs between checking and betting (with up to 1 offsuit club hand for every 2 FDs that take the betting line), and for those that bet, you need some that bet/fold. So, I'd consider b/f some of those that have the Qc (as they would be the worst bluffs) or some KcJx, and you'd then want some Acx to go into that b/c line. If you have any offsuit aces with the kicker below T, those are the best, as they have the least chance of winning at showdown, and may fold out some better hands. The higher the kicker on the A, the worse these are as bluffs though, especially ott. From that, I think AcJx can work when played this way, so long you're balancing it correctly. If you check turn and then raise a bet by villain otr, this will also be very profitable, as will calling a bet by villain otr with some of your better AcX, so you want to make sure both of those are lines you can take. Finally, if you're betting FDs and some offsuit club hands ott, your range here risks being incredibly weighted towards runouts where the flush comes in. If it doesn't, what are you left to bluff with otr when so many of your hands block villain's river folding range?

Also, if you're checking flop with weaker aces (or with any hands), you aren't range betting, so you should probably go bigger otf.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramius
Villain used almost all time bank, so i expect some big fold from him, but imo villain play just get punished by lack of respect for pre and postflop ranges, you are oop, you have no nuts or even equity advantage, just stop doing donkey raises with marginal draws and 1 pair hands
No one is denying that jamming the river here is a good play. And clearly, villain is very likely to have been far too aggressive with his turn raise, as he can do this with 1 combo of 22, 3 of 44 (TT seems unlikely for an aggro player to not have 3bet pre), the 1 combo of A2s you don't block (and maybe 2 combos of K2s) and then a number of Tx, a lot of which would probably perform better as calls. I think the point people were trying to make is that there isn't only one way to punish aggro villains, and this particular way is the highest variance (apart from 3betting turn, but I'm not sure you'd want to do that very often, if ever) and possibly not the highest EV (as I don't think an aggro villain will have a better non-pair hand ott, so your hand probably has well over 50% equity vs villain's range, but won't if it bets and gets called or raised). I think using Ac9 or Ac8, if in range, are considerably better bluffs than AcJ. I don't think your play is terrible, I'd even say it is reasonable at a low frequency or with some slightly different hands, but I think you can achieve similar or higher EV with much lower variance and better balanced ranges.
NL 25 "I have bigger" Quote
05-09-2021 , 07:06 PM
Turn sizing is way too small and b/c is mistake.
NL 25 "I have bigger" Quote
05-10-2021 , 04:15 AM
river seems crazy, your Ac isnt that relevant to justify this.
NL 25 "I have bigger" Quote
05-10-2021 , 05:01 AM
turn seems awful, i dont think anyone in a forum can give you a different answer given how insane of a read you would need to bet turn, let alone call a raise
NL 25 "I have bigger" Quote
05-10-2021 , 06:17 AM
even flop is misplayed
turn is abysmal
river if you think he's bluffing a lot, you actually beat all of his bluffs and what's he going to bf, so why are you jamming
NL 25 "I have bigger" Quote
05-10-2021 , 06:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ionutd
even flop is misplayed
turn is abysmal
river if you think he's bluffing a lot, you actually beat all of his bluffs and what's he going to bf, so why are you jamming
You would use bigger cbet if i not range bet or check? A lot of nl 25 stars regs are "capable" of folding flush here, TBH without big read i would fold kcqc here, just becouse preflop raiser can play quads/boat this way, i m preety much sure this is near 2nd best river bluff, better being only ac4x, so we bluff those or practically never raise for bluff here
NL 25 "I have bigger" Quote
05-10-2021 , 07:29 AM
you can cb close to range here for 2/3 easy or even up to pot irl
if you give solvers a 2x+ ob size here, they'll use it, it won't be a range bet but it's happening a fair amount
% wise he's got like 2% trips or better on 422 and you have a big edge on premium to mid pairs so he can't do much about that, furthermore your good but vulnerable pairs want to bet big otf and take adv of folding out overcards.
that's why turn is mainly overbet too, mid size is more like 99-77, mby AT/AA that block too much of his calling range and like K/Q meh hands. as it stands, your A highs just block his folding range, have sdv and will improve on rivers they might try and rep and because you are incentivized to bet a lot of your weak and mid pairs, Ahighs become some of your bluff catchers on river bricks. there's not much in terms of oe and gs to x/ here for board coverage and so these hands are natural candidates to x/ and be able to defend on a river brick, which is most of the deck. I mean if you bet AK at least that's getting called by some worse hands and for a smaller size you can merge a bit but betting AQ/AJ really serves little to no purpose. and calling the raise , come on, you got so many hands to defend that also don't block bluffs.
ye idk how nitty your pool is, I wouldn't be surprised if they bf weaker flushes or trips otr, as they actually should but I wouldn't count on it to be the norm. ye ok now thinking about it, mby you can't actually call any Ahighs and bluffing your AcX combos is fine if they bf weak flushes, still you don't really know what he's repping with this mid size he uses, trips I don't think bet this big, small flushes mby go smaller too and in that case you're stuck vs a range that simply has nothing to bf except for airballs. you got some A4 in your range, I guess just use those and call it a day.
NL 25 "I have bigger" Quote
05-10-2021 , 07:51 AM
Ok, So consensus is cbet flop bigger, even if it's nearly range or range, then dont bet turn with a high that most likely have SDV, how about a3 or a5 with or without A club? Without club we just give up, but with A club, only those aces should be our Ac bluffs to avoid overbluffing, a3 and a5 give us 6 bluff combos to attack club runout IF only called on turn, but what we call vs turn raise that we can bluff river? Actx, Acax, Ac2x now become bluffcatcher, it's not too tight when we have like million flush draws and boats that bet call turn?
NL 25 "I have bigger" Quote
05-10-2021 , 08:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramius
Ok, So consensus is cbet flop bigger, even if it's nearly range or range, then dont bet turn with a high that most likely have SDV, how about a3 or a5 with or without A club? Without club we just give up, but with A club, only those aces should be our Ac bluffs to avoid overbluffing, a3 and a5 give us 6 bluff combos to attack club runout IF only called on turn, but what we call vs turn raise that we can bluff river? Actx, Acax, Ac2x now become bluffcatcher, it's not too tight when we have like million flush draws and boats that bet call turn?
If you're getting to the turn with A3-A5o, then those are fine bluffs, and also decent (but not great) calls vs a raise, as they have considerably less SDV than AJ (which should be the highest A high villain can have given they didn't 3bet), are slightly more likely to improve, and can improve to fairly strong hands. The six combos with the Ac will likely provide you with more than enough potential river bluffs on a club. Those that don't have a club, I'd be tempted to just b/f ott, because calling with just an A and a gutshot really isn't great. However, you probably should ask yourself whether calling turn with hands like 55-99 or even A4o, and then bluff-jamming some of those combos with a club when facing a river bet is a better play over both streets than doing the same with Ac3x or Ac5x (which will win a lot less often if the club doesn't come), seen as the flush only hits 1/5 times otr. You don't want a range constructed around this fairly rare occurrence, but a range that can deal with this rare occurrence on those occasions it occurs.

However, if you do have A3 & A5o here, I suspect you will have all A5-A9o and even A4o (which would be 21 combos of AcXo), which are all better hands at doing what you were doing with AJo I think.
NL 25 "I have bigger" Quote

      
m