Any other thoughts on this Vs villians who can fold they will rarely turn up with KJ,KT,KQo and other suited kings they might of opened, sometimes they will even fold KQs and AKo even(fullring nits)

I would rather 3 bet them so I have iniative in the hand plus position plus hopefully better post flop skills then my villan. the only thing I don't have going is card streghen.

What I like to think of is say villan has TT he raises pre we flat with 87s OTB flop is Q J 7 rainbow, he cbets we most likely have to fold. where if we 3bet he calls our hand is the same but we win the pot with our flop cBet.

Or even flop is A 9 2 rainbow he wins or we win who ever has initative whens this pot. There are flops where we can maybe take it away from him as well say the A 7 3 flop, we can float alot of the time but if he double barrels we have to fold.


Take a look at what you win or lose when you cold call in your hold em manager.

the range he opens UTG is 100% value.

The range he 3bets OTB is polarised, the range he flats is middleing.

We'll definitely discuss the merits of flatting vs. 3-betting SC from the button once we get around to that position. There are times to 3-bet a hand like 78s and times to flat it. Again, if you want to jump ahead, try to come up with a situation where one is better than the other and vice versa.

In position ,I'd 3b 78ss when theres a squezze/3b happy player still to act,
with passive player its a call in position.

But i wonder ,from the big blind is there any situation when its better to 3b? Other maybe than to balance.

Not trying to jump ahead, just trying to respond to the post.

Actually would like to go back to the begining and find out more what should be seen by looking at the stats and what people would do to try to expolit this player based on them.

and to add ot the current discussion, I agree that the ranges and style of play you suggest from EP are good. I don't like the "formula" style poker this suggests. i.e. you do this you will win you don't you have leaks. I think its a great foundation for someone to start and profitable but think by someone as respected as you saying it leads to people just mindlessly doing it and making money. Then when they move up they wonder why they no longer make money and have never learned how to think about poker. Just that this formula should work.

Edit: i am not saying you don't explain the why, you do very well, more my point is people just see your ranges and go with it and don't question you.

^^ what do you mean balance. what sort of balance are you wanting to create by 3betting 78s?, so that after 1millionmillion hands they know you don't have a range consisting of 100% 78s when you flat from the BB (What?)

if you want to widen your 3betting range form the BB either widen your value range or include more bluffs. bluffs which are just below your calling range is alot easier such as 86s or w/e. where you don't want to fold and you don't want to call.

A time to 3-bet a hand like 78s OOP are when you have a specific read that some player opens too much from a certain position and then folds to too many 3-bets. We would do it with 78s because IF called:

A) We can c-bet high card board
B) We have equity of mid-card connected boards

So the point of it is to make profit preflop, not to try to hit postflop. In the few times that we are called preflop, we'll often have equity postflop on a lot of boards.

As martin9_90 said: It's not about balance.

That does make sence.

Cool thread i ll definitly follow it.

I don't fully understand why we would just go on lock down UTG mode here. I understand it if we are folding JJ- and Aq-, but would it be more optimal to open up your 4 betting range a bit?

I talked with a number of people about the general idea of dealing with players who get out of line with 3-betting. Among them was BoyWonder who mentioned that most inexperienced players react to being 3-bet too much by starting to 4-bet wider whereas the adjustment they need to do first is to tighten up.

He said he loves it when someone starts responding to his 3-bets by 4-betting him wider because he then owns them (we can get into the how and why of that later).

lolat using boywonder as a person to talk poker with, sreiosuly...you know he is terrible right?

Bland and boring = mind-blowing.

I think a lot of the pre-flop mistakes made are a leak because of poor note-taking and reads and not adjusting your game-plan to go with your reads. If you do those two things well, theoretically, you should be quite loose. I hope this idea will be addressed once "fold pre" is drilled into uNL's head. Maybe a topic will be opened on when folding pre is bad and it's just sacrificing equity that you could use to exploit your opponent.

I think this topic came up in one of the threads he posted which turn into mini-wells.

I'd imagine at these stakes people struggle to respond to frequent 3betting well and as such people should go bat**** crazy with it. I'd also bet people either struggle to adjust or adjust badly. I recently watched a video (completely forgot where it came up, possibly 2M2MM) and it came up. Tightening up your range is much better than 4 betting wider, although you may increase your 4bet value range a few percent. I've never really had a 4bet dynamic at the nanos so this is mostly theory based but as i understand, you should be willing to 4bet/call with everything you open in front of the frequent 3better. However, i also am led to believe this could lead to a **** load of variance/stress and sometimes moving seat/tables is a better option.

I'm now off to hunt a maths style video about this before i do some calcs.

widening my 4b range has definitely gotten me into trouble on quite a few occasions. Mainly i think because they are much more likely to be bluffing you on their first few 3b's then their last few.

Also, if some guy is owning you, there's not really any need to play against him/prove yourself, unless your primary aim in poker is not to make money but rather take on 'good players'. There are plenty of other micro tables around. Unless your table is still +EV for other reasons, let the guy go mental 3betting other people if you aren't coping with it well.

really it's just a cost/benefit ratio. if someone on the table is fishy enough and the maniacal 3better is crazy/unbalanced enough, the table is still +EV even if some situations are marginal.

I like this tread so far. Keep it up. Thanks Verneer and wishiewish for doing this.

I definitely agree with that

I totally agree with the tightening up on the 4-bets as opposed to widening the range. This has cost me tons in the past and present. You see a villians stat line as being 3-bet happy and think he is FOS only to turn over KK. This of course is in direct relation to your earlier post about misinterpreting HUD info over a insufficient sample size, the problem is the only villian I have a significant sample size on is Volleyshoot

Sweet thread so far, looking forward to the duration.

P.S. Did you watch Good Eats about preparing salmon recently or are you pre-med ?

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How do you know that you didn't make the optimal play, just happened to be one of the times you ran into the top of his range? And we aren't tighting up our 4 bets we are tighting up our opening range.

They're not saying tighten up your 4bet range, they're saying tighten up your opening range. As far as adjusting very poorly to 3-bets, well... been there, done that. I'm finally at a point right now where I have the discipline not to go nuts and to realise that leaving a table when someone is making life hard makes me a better player, instead of a weak one being scared.

If someone is equally good or even a lot worse than you but are in position 4 or 5 out of every 6 hands they're going to get the better of you. Leaving doesn't mean you acknowledge that they're better.

(If there are a lot of better players than me at the stakes I was playing that would bother me, but I dont think this is a bad quality for a poker player. You have to want to be good at something in order to become good at it. So I stopped looking at it as acknowledging my loss, rather than circumstances that won't allow me to play properly in that situation. Obv I don't believe I'm on of the best players at my stakes, but I don't ever want to be viewed as the fish)