Move up to where they respect your raises

GREAT thread verneer !!!!!! Thx for the TnE

I second his fanboy respect for the almighty verneer.

Thread looks very promising.

To all the people being dumb/sarcastic in this thread:

You should probably stop. It's not often you get such good advice, especially for free, from a valued poster.

This is mostly true but you will stumble across a few huge fishies at 10nl who 3bet 15%+. I've seen a couple at my tables with 20%+ over 200 hand samples.

I just realized what BBV stood for. See, I'm learning things already!

Thanks for all the input and output from all the better players, it's helping me find leaks in my game.

You're welcome! Now ... could you tell me what TnE stands for?

Disclaimer: What follows is a general discussion of why a certain range is profitable in a setting where you don't have great reads and will be +EV until you develop those reads. Your adjustments that you make due to your reads are what will make you money in the long run, not some hand chart. With that said, MP should still play fairly straightforward.

Middle Position (MP)

This position should play pretty much like UTG with two small differences:

1. Sometimes a player enters the pot ahead of you.
2. You are 10% less likely to be OOP postflop.

Default MP raising range: 22+, AT+, JTs+, KJ+ (13.7% of hands)



Two additions that you might notice are JTs and QJs. Those play well enough postflop to open at this point.

Limpers

This is the first position where you start dealing with limpers. Assuming that the limper has a reasonable stack (65BB's+) you can isolate them with your whole open range. No need to pot it - just make it 4x with whatever you would have opened - even 22 - and go from there. Treat them almost like if they folded.

If a limper is a short stack, just open whatever you feel comfortable playing all-in preflop vs. him.

Facing an UTG open

By default, you can 3-bet JJ+, AK for value. If you get shoved on, you should fold the jacks. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't have 3-bet them at this level - tons of people will call you with worse, but when you get 4-bet, you will often look at QQ+, AK. As you develop reads and realize that someone's 4-betting range from UTG is KK+ and they either 4-bet or fold, you can start flatting QQ and AK.

Also, by default, you should call 22 - TT, AQ, AJs, and KQs. Those should be pretty easy to play postflop.

What about suited connectors?

Meh ... how often do you win a big 4-way pot being OOP with 78s? You remember the times where you've flopped a straight and forget all the times you've bled money. Often you will flop a weak flush draw or pair + draw. Now - HU, those do really well in position, but multi-way OOP not so well.

Facing a 3-bet

Treat this just like if you opened from UTG. As I mentioned - they play almost identically.

So that's it. The really interesting stuff starts happening at the CO.

Verneer, long-time listener, first-time caller. Your vids at 10NL really helped me when I was starting out at the micros.

Looking forward to the next stuff, these first few posts already have helped me plug some big leaks in my game (getting fancy in EP with SCs, low Aces, and the like).

This is really great thread, lf to it
keep the good work

Just had to chime in and agree with the sentiment of this being a really good thread, ty verneer

First off I love the disclaimer at the top of your MP ranges!! second I like only adding 3 hands Since only one guy has folded and thus we still will be OOP the same almost the amount of time. I question though hands like QJ and JT suited vs adding a some suited aces. I like the combo draws they create. But the draws they create are going to run into strong made hands most of the time, and when you make pairs and get action your likely to be in the same kicker trouble boat as if you opened A8 and get action on a Ace high flop.

Wondering your thoughts on why you choose QJ and JT instead of the suited aces.

Interesting question. Probably doesn't mean much, but as a starting point to thinking about this, I looked at A9s, QJs and JTs versus 4 random hands (assume UTG folded) and against 1 random hand.

A9s: 28% v 4 random and 63% v 1
QJs: 30% and 60%
JTs: 29% and 58%

Not much in it, but favours A9 slightly.

pretty much looks like my range in MP except I open KTs/QTs/A9s but besides those three that looks like my default MP open to a tee. I am still a pretty big winner in MP but I'll check out my longterm results for those hands. Thanks!

Turning off Auto Pilot with JTs and QJs

I guess I should say that I debated putting QJs and JTs there because they are going to often be tricky to play postflop. That said, if you are going to selectively practice marginal postflop play, those are two good hands to do it with.

So use them for the following exercise: Whenever you pick up JTs or QJs in MP, turn off your auto-pilot, and ask yourself whether this is going to be a profitable open for you right here, right now. Who do you have in the blinds? Who is in position vs. you, and how often are they calling? Are people at this table calling with worse tens? Worse jacks? Worse queens?

In fact, is this table really that profitable for you right now? If it's not, snap out of it and change tables! If it is, then why?

After you've come up with a convincing argument for opening, open. If you cannot come up with a better reason than "hand chart says open", then go ahead and fold it.

They are all pretty marginal, but JTs and QJs have the added straight possibilities and you are unlikely to get value owned hard if you flop top pair.

Also, if we're going to be widening our UTG opening range to include more suited aces, A2s-A5s is waaaaaayyyy better than A9s.

Really good thread btw verneer, enjoying it a lot. Thanks for sharing.

I instinctively agreed with you due to the obvious added straight possibilities and went to PokerStove to see how much better. Interesting results:
A5s v 1 random hand: 60%
A2s v 1 random hand: 57%

Maybe these are worse than A9s because:
- with either A2-A5, not only do you need 3 straight cards, but you need exactly the 3 remaining wheel cards (or 4 cards for a higher straight)
- you are more likely to hit one 9 than hit 3 straight cards, with small % that 9s will be good (and 9s will be better than 5s or 3s more often)

Popular mis-conception the added str8 possiblities dont make up for the times u pay to find out u have a dominated ace.

before u say but i wont stack off with a baby ace no one's talking stack off but on the otherhand are u going to simply fold everytime your bet into on a ace hi flop?

With regards to domination issues- A2s-A5s is no different from A9s when you actually consider your opponents calling ranges when you open UTG.

thinking of getting a coach. how much will they charge just to keep repeating the words, wtf why do u think he is bluffing. since i swear this will up my winrate 5x

Thanks! So here are some thoughts about low suited aces vs. A9s:

1. Tons of people don't like to fold any Ax. This means that on a A x x board, kickers will make a difference. A9s has seven other hands dominated.

2. You will never flop top pair (with a non-ace) with A2s or A3s. You can with A4s or A5s, but are unlikely to get a lot of value out of dominated hands - not many people are calling with worse 5's or 4's that will give action. On the other hand, there are tons of worse 9's people call preflop with: 79 - K9, and you are likely to get value out of those hands.

3. A9s gets value with top pair out of 66, 77, and 88 which probably isn't folding on a 9-high board and is behind.

4. Both are equally as likely to flop the NFD.

5. Flopping a straight with A2s - A5s happens less than 0.4% of the time, and flopping a gutter isn't that great.

So - at MSNL or HSNL, people often open all suited aces because there is tons of fold equity associated with playing the NFD fast. This is not something which is a staple at uNL, where making pairs and getting called by worse is the way to uRiches [1]. In that regard, even A9o > A2s.

[1] If no one has used this before, I'm trademarking the terms uRiches and uBalla (I'm looking at you MDorandD!)

If that's all you need, I'll coach you. We'll do one session per week where you show me a hand and I play a recorded message which you dictated above. Make sure to only discuss hands where you out leveled yourself.

Just doubled my bankroll (+17 BI's at 5NL and 10NL combined), so I am done playing for the day (which means I won't meet my hand goal, but let's enjoy the little milestones. Next one will be at $500). Will start playing 10NL full time now barring a major downswing.



Progress (not too terribly different from yesterday - won't update daily because that would be stupid, but will update at major milestones):

Verneer are CR paying you for playing on lower stakes or are you just a Greek Samaritan?
They can't be to happy about you generously helping 2+2ers for free, can they?

Grats on the milestone BTW