Whenever I post a hand about the difficulty of something at 5nlz, I always get the same response. It's usually something like the answer is obvious and everyone at 5nlz is a donkey, and that if you can't beat it with your eyes closed then you probably have some severe mental deficit.

I don't know, maybe that is true and I was dropped on my head as a kid?

From my perspective, I feel I'm working pretty hard here to beat the limit and I'm getting basically nowhere. I have a 1bb/100 wr over 75k sample. Yes, I know this sample is too small really to say everything, but I've had a couple of big downswings 14bi, so I'm pretty sure run bad isn't the only thing going on here.

So, I'm interested in finding out who the winners at 5nlz are over a significant sample. And I'm interested in finding out the kind of work you did to beat the limit, and the kind of work I should be doing. I think I might be doing the wrong kind of studying, and not focusing on the things I need to be focusing on.

Pretty sure nobody on here wins at that rate.

These are my hands from November 2018 - April 2019. I left out 50NL because it makes me sad but I'm down almost 20BI at that limit over 10k hands or so.

All Ignition Zone

I played some games at NL5Z on Ignition and I found it difficult.

TBH, I have been playing NL10 to NL25 regular games with a HUD and they are very soft. If you are most interested in making money, you may want to consider switching.

Congrats on your 5.74 @5nl. OP's still in need of 6bb+/100 apparently.

lol awesome.

sorry OP i didn't make the cut.

OP,
Play position
3b well
Have a good cb strat
Defend your BB well
After your comfy doing those things, identify leaks through experience or HM/PT and work on them.
This is the kind of question I don't think I could possibly answer well, at all. Someone like DDP or if there are actually other winners around here would be better to answer that.

Regular tables are known to be much softer than Zone. I've never played so can't confirm/deny but I believe it.

That's pretty good. Your sample is small for 5NL but it's still solid. I notice you are calling 3-bets 34% pre flop, which is more than my 17%. If I'm not in the CO or BTN, I've been folding stuff like Axs and hands like pocket 88s. I was thinking I should be defending more wide.

Defending 3bets OOP likely doesn't add much to your winrate if anything. It sounds like a platitude but it is much more about playing your ranges correctly, whatever they are.

A lot of conventional wisdom is mediocre advice and won't help you improve. Since I started solver work about 2 months ago, my understanding for the game has deepened a lot.

For instance, bet sizing only matters for your range. So If my strategy is to 1/3 pot cbet on a certain board, my range will look way different then if I decide to overbet cbet on that same board.

What is your W$WSF?

Total coincidence that your wr has halfed at $5nl in the past two months.

This of course is complete bs because every little bit helps in every hand. Honestly have you ever dipped into your tracker enough to see if you're making back more than you put in when you defend vs a 3b when oop? Based on your lack of knowledge on basic HUD stats and workings, I'd bet quite a bit that you haven't studied your tracker by yourself for more than a handful of hours lifetime.

This is certainly true. However, there's an argument to get the **** out of micros asap. As you can see at $5nl, applying some strat that may work better at $100+ is going to zap your wr. Why you don't just play an exploitable strat to get to at least $50 in a month or two is beyond my comprehension and don't say "you need a theoretical understanding to be able to exploit" because that's complete bull**** and as bad as an excuse as WM saying he's on LL's level because he's played a bunch of poker.

The thing that I think people are sometimes guilty of is thinking about things relative to where they are now where, for many people, 5nl does seem like child's play. In spite of that, I don't know too many players who started poker and crushed online from the get go (although they're out there) and I'm guessing it's even less frequent in the current game where it's tougher than ever.

Also, people are trying to be motivational. It's way too easy to get stuck in the slump that poker's too hard, you can't beat fish, it's all luck, and people on here are quite blunt about letting you know that it really isn't that bad.

Most people are losing players. Most that become winning players move up to a level where they're break evens or losing again. Very few get to the top and keep winning.

If you can write in full sentences you can learn to beat 5nl. The question is how much work you'll put in and whether you can keep the right mindset for it.

My WR is actually losing over the last 20k hands, but that has nothing to do with the solver. I ran above expectation in my first 20k hands at 5NLz and now I'm running well below.

Variance is a real thing.

Technically you are correct. My point was that studying spots that come up more often (such as BTNvsBB) would be a better use of his time, over studying something that doesn't happen as often (3bet pots OOP).

No I haven't studied my tracker at all, that is why I am transitioning over to ACR.

For a few reasons.

1) I want to test myself against ACR regs
2) I want to learn how to use a HUD proficiently



You are still attributing my solver work with my decreased WR. My game has gotten better, not worse with off the table work. The 20k hand sample is variance and running 10BI's below expectation in all in EV.

Go from 5NL-->50NL in 1 or 2 months? Is that a joke? When was the last time you played a 100k hand sample at 5NL/10NL/25NL? 2008?

There is a reason most people have quit poker online or transitioned to live. The games are wayyyy harder and most people don't have the skill or knowledge to be profitable. Also all micros aren't the same. There is a huge difference between 5NL on Global or BOL, as opposed to 5NLz on Ignition and 5NL on ACR.

Let's say we start out with $100 and do your challenge at 5NL. In order to grow that $100 (20 BI's at 5NL) to $1000 (20 BI's at 50NL) you would have to jump from 5NL->10NL->25NL

So we would first have to win 20 buyins at 5NL - let's assume a 5BB winrate so that would take 40k hands.

Now we are at 10NL with $200. We need to win $300 or 30BIs. So again let's assume our WR doesn't drop when we move up (it will).

We need to play 60k hands at 10NL.

Okay now we have $500. Now we are 25NL with 20BIs. We need to win another 20 BIs to move up to 50NL. Okay let's again assume 5BB winrate even though it won't be this high. Let's also assume we run decent and variance doesn't crush us.

20BIs at 25NL @5bb WR is another 40k hands.

Okay so we have to play 140k hands in 1 or 2 months and in all this time have a top 1% WR - that is just to GET to 50NL. God forbid we go on a downswing then we have to do this all over again.

Yeah that isn't easy. And that is why so many people are stuck at the micros. Add in the ridiculous rake and the better play and it is no wonder micros is the place where poker players go to die.

The last point made me laugh. The fact that WorldzMine thinks he is even close to LinusLove in poker skill/knowledge is a complete joke. Nothing can compare to that.

Agree to disagree. I'm at 8bb/100 over 131k hands and 7.1bb/100 ev over that same stretch.

I agree with most everything else you said though.

@pokrr Operate under the following assumptions:
1. Assume your opponent is playing his hand face up.
2. Assume your opponents calling range is wider than his betting range. This means bet for thin value and don't check to allow him to bluff if you have a value hand.
3. Assume his raising range is unbalanced heavily towards value on turn and river.

About #2, I've been getting bluff-raised a lot recently, especially in blind v blind dynamic when going for thin value. This has resulted in me stopping going for thin value in certain spots and checking big hands because of the amount of the time they punt when I do so.

For example, checking back 2nd pair on the flop and then betting 1/2 pot on the turn results in getting bluff raised a lot.

And about #3, you're saying their turn and river raising range is unbalanced, meaning they're not doing it with the right combos of value:bluffs. So, by this you mean that it's basically just value?

To #3 yes. To #2 I would be careful in assigning recency bias over a small period of time.

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Yes, then an issue I'm having is making a wrong adjustment based on not enough information. I actually think I do this a lot, because I am unsure about how to make adjustments vs an anonymous pool. This comes up a lot if during a session I am 3-bet or 4-bet a lot more than usual. How can you know if the pool is more aggro that day, or if you're just unfortunately running into the nuts constantly?

It doesn't matter, believe in your strategy. Sometimes you will make the wrong play in a specific spot, but if you stick to your ranges and your reasons for doing a specific action are sound the result in the short term doesn't matter. Fluctuation in pool aggressiveness is outside of your control and something you cannot measure, don't try to guess.

I agree with simplelessons' three tips. Also as he said; believe in your strategy. I make tons of mistakes every session. I believe it possible to win at 10bb+ at 5nlz on ignition.

If you're winning I don't get why anyone would waste more than ~20k hands at 5nl.


@DooDoo, rethinking this thread now then? https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...-ever-1734189/
And the micros aren't harder fwiw, in fact after spending some time on Ignition this year, I'd say the games on there are softer than 2010.

Because a 5bb winrate at 5nl over that many hands is $50? And how does a new player even know they are winning over that sample?

OP you are trying to make the most money at a given stake when you should be trying to become the best poker player possible. Don't study to make the most in a week study to become the best player you can be.

Fwiw I find 5nlz on stars (may (will) be completely different) to be the strangest stake to grind.

Few years ago when I played micro stakes I crushed all stakes with 12bb/100 from nl 10, 16, 25 and 50. Sample of around 400k hands. Can find the graphs and stats I'm my old PGC. I don't think uNL changed that much tbh. Most regs (me included) have weak mental games and cuts into win rates. Also always a challenge to execute strategies while playing.

Assuming you deposited around $50 then that's enough to shot 10nl. Just move within a fairly aggressive BRM. Staying at 5nl for 100's of thousands of hands waiting for a sample big enough to prove you're winning is just silly and a waste of time.

Stop killing my braincells man.

Not my fault you're a lifelong 5nl grinder.