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Old 05-23-2020, 05:36 PM   #1
sixsevenoff
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Looking at Solver Solutions And Knowing How/When To Deviate

I've been playing around a lot with GTO+. I looked really in depth at the board A J 4 J 7 at $100 effective HJ vs fish BB.

I was surprised to see the overall EV of using 1/3, 1/2, and 2/3 flop sizings were all within .1 of each other, with 1/3 being worst, then 1/2, and 2/3 being the best. I have been defaulting to 50%-60% on these boards.

Anyways, I noticed I've actually been playing this board pretty close to the solver. I've been betting all AJ and better, betting all of my sets, betting top two, betting top and bottom, checking all of my 99-TT, QQ-KK, betting all Broadway gutshots, etc

I've noticed a difference, though, in that the solver does like betting J9s about 2/3 and I've been x'ing. It also likes to x backdoor Q9s and K9s almost exclusively - I've been betting these hands every time. It also likes x'ing T9s and 98s about half the time and I've been purely betting these. It also bets 66 and 77 well over half the time, and 88 about 50-50...I've been purely x'ing these. I did notice that it doesn't triple nor double barrel 66-88 though.

What do you think of my deviations? Should I just do what the solver says?
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Old 05-23-2020, 06:13 PM   #2
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Exclamation Re: Looking at Solver Solutions And Knowing How/When To Deviate

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I did notice that it doesn't triple nor double barrel 66-88 though.
without being a solver person (or even NL person these days ) i'm guessing that this is a one barrel because when called it has little equity to improve otr when behind but benefits from overcard folds (ie: T9 types). it's just the inverse reason of why you check 99/TT/QQ/KK, you don't benefit much from a "protection" bet and just want to see a sd cheaply.
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Old 05-23-2020, 07:03 PM   #3
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Re: Looking at Solver Solutions And Knowing How/When To Deviate

vs fish = dont remotely care about solver.
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Old 05-23-2020, 07:32 PM   #4
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Re: Looking at Solver Solutions And Knowing How/When To Deviate

There isn't going to ever be much of a difference in EV between bet sizes vs the hypothetical villain that plays optimally. The only thing that really changes is the ranges for either player. If you node lock either player though, that's when you're going to see some tangible differences in EV

In the games you're playing in, trying to play as close to the solver as possible is just lighting money on fire. Unless of course you lock in fish ranges for villain, in which case you would actually want to do so
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Old 05-23-2020, 09:06 PM   #5
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Re: Looking at Solver Solutions And Knowing How/When To Deviate

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What do you think of my deviations? Should I just do what the solver says?
Your bluff to premium ratio matters, not so much the specific contents of your bluff range. Some hands that are, say, 20% bet, can just be checked 100%, and some hands that are 80% bet can just be bet 100%. Hands that are bet most of the time for their blocker potential should probably just be bet, and hands that are checked most of the time because they have no blockers, should probably just be checked, etc., etc....
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Old 05-24-2020, 08:56 AM   #6
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Re: Looking at Solver Solutions And Knowing How/When To Deviate

before you plunge deep into the rabbit hole,

try to model "realistic" ranges esp 3b/4b/cold call.
(with some work, you can get hold of pop tendencies from hem or pt4)

always model for worst case scenario so that you can avoid "he can never have <fancy combo> here" justifications later on

GIGO > GTO
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Old 05-24-2020, 01:52 PM   #7
sixsevenoff
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Re: Looking at Solver Solutions And Knowing How/When To Deviate

I am using fish ranges for opponent, and my ranges for me. I didn't know about node locking, but I will start using that! So using fish ranges and node locking, would you recommend staying consistent with the solver?
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Old 05-24-2020, 02:45 PM   #8
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Re: Looking at Solver Solutions And Knowing How/When To Deviate

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I am using fish ranges for opponent, and my ranges for me. I didn't know about node locking, but I will start using that! So using fish ranges and node locking, would you recommend staying consistent with the solver?
node locking will lead to your exploitative line only - it has its own pitfalls
I wouldn't recommend using a solver for common eXploits

what I would recommend is :
use the fish ranges and
breakdown your study into common spots (SRP - LP vs BB, 3b - SB vs LP etc),
run over multiple flops 33,50,184 whatever
see which boards are cbet often and what size, which are overbet spots - see if u can simplify those mixed strats
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Old 05-24-2020, 03:20 PM   #9
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Re: Looking at Solver Solutions And Knowing How/When To Deviate

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I am using fish ranges for opponent, and my ranges for me. I didn't know about node locking, but I will start using that! So using fish ranges and node locking, would you recommend staying consistent with the solver?
Yeah exactly, if you start with fish ranges and then node lock properly, the solver will give you the maximally exploitative (ie highest EV) strategy

Otherwise it will just assume the fish is playing optimally with the given ranges
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Old 05-24-2020, 04:58 PM   #10
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Re: Looking at Solver Solutions And Knowing How/When To Deviate

Thank you to both of you!
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Old 05-24-2020, 05:42 PM   #11
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Re: Looking at Solver Solutions And Knowing How/When To Deviate

This is something you'll have to learn on your own. If it was that easy or had some set of rules you could follow, every solver player would be at high stakes already.

How you use the solver is very important though and the most important thing. Create a good strategy on how to study what you are looking at and how you should implement what you learn. Study smart, not only hard. Gl

I would recommend focusing almost exclusively on flops and turns actions, make sure to put at least 3 sizes on flop and turn. River is more useless to study unless you got your flop and turn strat completelt nailed down and should have less weight than flop and turn just bc nagurally you get to river spots way less often, and by rivers if youve played poker long enough its somewhat "easy" to guess what your opponents range looks like and how they will react vs your action

I would recommend putting 25 33 66 120 otf and 33 70 120 ott
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Old 05-24-2020, 07:02 PM   #12
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Re: Looking at Solver Solutions And Knowing How/When To Deviate

Unless your goal is to be truly elite, is it realistic to try to learn the game tree for that many sizes? Each new size is going to exponentially increase the amount of trees you would have to learn. Like if the solver says to bet aces for three different sizings on the flop, now I have to learn how to play aces on the turn for each one of those sizings.

I’m a self taught novice when it comes to using solvers so feel free to say I’m wrong, but in my experience, given that flop sizing in particular rarely has a serious impact on EV, and the fact that starting with multiple sizings on the flop has the worst impact in creating more trees to learn, I generally just use one flop sizing if it’s a board where I know that sizing is generally acceptable. I would rather have small sizings leaks than try to learn a million game trees and end up retaining nothing.

On the turn, sizings seem to matter more and we create fewer trees, on the river, we don’t create any more trees unless we get raised so I would use multiple sizings there.

With regards to the OP, use nodelocking and see how the solver adjusts to people’s tendencies.

Last edited by Badreg2017; 05-24-2020 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 05-24-2020, 09:00 PM   #13
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Re: Looking at Solver Solutions And Knowing How/When To Deviate

my bad lol, didnt really explain why i choose so many sizings. I only use that initially to see which sizing pio likes on that flop. Usually i analyze why we use certain sizings and why pio doesnt like certain sizings otf, and then rerun flop with one size and delete the others. Unless its say JT6ss where we wanna have a 1/4 strat and overbet strat (at least i do).

Ott yeah you need multiple sizings. We wanna be doing a lot of overbetting after checking flop, assuming we have a reasonable flop strat that includes a lot of x.
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Old 05-24-2020, 11:13 PM   #14
sixsevenoff
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Re: Looking at Solver Solutions And Knowing How/When To Deviate

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Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
This is something you'll have to learn on your own. If it was that easy or had some set of rules you could follow, every solver player would be at high stakes already.

How you use the solver is very important though and the most important thing. Create a good strategy on how to study what you are looking at and how you should implement what you learn. Study smart, not only hard. Gl

I would recommend focusing almost exclusively on flops and turns actions, make sure to put at least 3 sizes on flop and turn. River is more useless to study unless you got your flop and turn strat completelt nailed down and should have less weight than flop and turn just bc nagurally you get to river spots way less often, and by rivers if youve played poker long enough its somewhat "easy" to guess what your opponents range looks like and how they will react vs your action

I would recommend putting 25 33 66 120 otf and 33 70 120 ott
Awesome - I made note of all of this and plan to do a good amount of this tomorrow. Thank you. Why don't you have half pot sizing otf? Why does everyone hate it?
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Old 05-25-2020, 02:51 AM   #15
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Re: Looking at Solver Solutions And Knowing How/When To Deviate

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Awesome - I made note of all of this and plan to do a good amount of this tomorrow. Thank you. Why don't you have half pot sizing otf? Why does everyone hate it?
While you are at it,
you also need to study how and what combos to continue when your lame ass 1/3 "range cbet" gets check raised
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Old 05-25-2020, 02:54 AM   #16
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Re: Looking at Solver Solutions And Knowing How/When To Deviate

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Awesome - I made note of all of this and plan to do a good amount of this tomorrow. Thank you. Why don't you have half pot sizing otf? Why does everyone hate it?
Ah it depends on what I'm running it for. I do use half pot sometimes. I like it for BB vs SB after SB checks and for dbl barrel sizings in 3 bet pots, so if im running a BvB spot I like to give BB 50% option stabs ip. And if it's a 3b pot i like to give us the option to dbl barrel 50% ott.

I usually run turn with 33 50 70 120. I notice that the solver likes using 50 a lot ott for overcards, for example in 3b pots. It doesnt make a whole ton of sense to overbet an A turn in a 3b pot IP and 70% pot all that often considering V's range. Also I think ott PIO tends to not like mixing a ton of turn sizings. It usually pre dominantly likes one or two sizings ott even if you input 4 sizings so you can just effectively ignore the other ones & pretend they dont exist, or just throw them out & rerun. As badreg pointed out, you really dont wanna be going down too many games trees as you'll just overload and you'll forget/not implement a good strategy.

What I do is run 25 33 66 120 otf, 33 70 120 ott, 70 120 otr for single raised pots and make some adjustments for 3b pots (add AI ott and otr, add 50% sizing ott).

I don't like running 1/2 otf as the pfr because i think it's more intuitive for me to look at 33 vs 66 otf and what hand class wants to use which sizings. i cant really remember off the top of my head but sometimes pio does some very seemingly "exploitative" sizings like betting smaller when it crushes the board where V cannot continue very often and allows V to make more mistakes, or "betting bigger when it just wants to end the hand". im not saying that's why pio chooses those sizings but that's my way of rationalizing it lol.

using 50% doesnt make too much intuitive sense to me and i wouldnt remember why i should use 50% over the other sizings, plus it just adds another game tree i dont wanna go down. as for why other people hate it, most people think it's a sizing that kinda says you dont know what size to bet so you choose that. maybe that has some truth to it but if you wanna implement 50% sizing in your game then go ahead and learn it.

i am strongly considering dropping 1/3 sizing from my sims and game sometime in the future since everyone else is using it and people are starting to react somewhat better vs it than when it first came out. nobody really knows how to play vs a 1/4 though and it can gain you a lot of ev if you know how to use it properly. also would be nice to eliminate a sizing from my game/solves and use less sizings haha.

but yeah basically treat pio like a tool. dont try to copy it but try to understand the reasoning on why it chooses certain things, and apply it whenever appropriate. even if you dont apply it all the time it very deeply changes the way you think about the game and understand it, and personally for me after using it i broke through a lot of brick walls in my progress and ive seen good results in my games despite having played very low volume for the past few years/being rusty and running sims only occasionally for the past few years, just due to life. just remember that it's a tool and tools are only as useful as how you use them.
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Old 05-25-2020, 01:17 PM   #17
sixsevenoff
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Re: Looking at Solver Solutions And Knowing How/When To Deviate

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Originally Posted by dubakkur2 View Post
While you are at it,
you also need to study how and what combos to continue when your lame ass 1/3 "range cbet" gets check raised
You don't use 1/3 at all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minotarr
Ah it depends on what I'm running it for. I do use half pot sometimes. I like it for BB vs SB after SB checks and for dbl barrel sizings in 3 bet pots, so if im running a BvB spot I like to give BB 50% option stabs ip. And if it's a 3b pot i like to give us the option to dbl barrel 50% ott.

I usually run turn with 33 50 70 120. I notice that the solver likes using 50 a lot ott for overcards, for example in 3b pots. It doesnt make a whole ton of sense to overbet an A turn in a 3b pot IP and 70% pot all that often considering V's range. Also I think ott PIO tends to not like mixing a ton of turn sizings. It usually pre dominantly likes one or two sizings ott even if you input 4 sizings so you can just effectively ignore the other ones & pretend they dont exist, or just throw them out & rerun. As badreg pointed out, you really dont wanna be going down too many games trees as you'll just overload and you'll forget/not implement a good strategy.

What I do is run 25 33 66 120 otf, 33 70 120 ott, 70 120 otr for single raised pots and make some adjustments for 3b pots (add AI ott and otr, add 50% sizing ott).

I don't like running 1/2 otf as the pfr because i think it's more intuitive for me to look at 33 vs 66 otf and what hand class wants to use which sizings. i cant really remember off the top of my head but sometimes pio does some very seemingly "exploitative" sizings like betting smaller when it crushes the board where V cannot continue very often and allows V to make more mistakes, or "betting bigger when it just wants to end the hand". im not saying that's why pio chooses those sizings but that's my way of rationalizing it lol.

using 50% doesnt make too much intuitive sense to me and i wouldnt remember why i should use 50% over the other sizings, plus it just adds another game tree i dont wanna go down. as for why other people hate it, most people think it's a sizing that kinda says you dont know what size to bet so you choose that. maybe that has some truth to it but if you wanna implement 50% sizing in your game then go ahead and learn it.

i am strongly considering dropping 1/3 sizing from my sims and game sometime in the future since everyone else is using it and people are starting to react somewhat better vs it than when it first came out. nobody really knows how to play vs a 1/4 though and it can gain you a lot of ev if you know how to use it properly. also would be nice to eliminate a sizing from my game/solves and use less sizings haha.

but yeah basically treat pio like a tool. dont try to copy it but try to understand the reasoning on why it chooses certain things, and apply it whenever appropriate. even if you dont apply it all the time it very deeply changes the way you think about the game and understand it, and personally for me after using it i broke through a lot of brick walls in my progress and ive seen good results in my games despite having played very low volume for the past few years/being rusty and running sims only occasionally for the past few years, just due to life. just remember that it's a tool and tools are only as useful as how you use them.
Thank you so much for this! I always appreciate your advice. I took notes on this post, too, and have a few hours of solving ahead of me .
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Old 05-25-2020, 02:29 PM   #18
dubakkur2
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Re: Looking at Solver Solutions And Knowing How/When To Deviate

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You don't use 1/3 at all?
NO. - I don't "range cbet" and I don't use this size
I use 1/4 in 3bet pots
I may use 1/4 in SRP if villain plays fit or fold on dry flops
I have 1/4,1/2,3/4 depending on board and villain (still working on it)

edit: in 3bp especially, my bet sizings are contingent on my hand, spr, villain stacks and how many streets I want to play. I don't have a set rule.

Last edited by dubakkur2; 05-25-2020 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 05-25-2020, 04:09 PM   #19
sixsevenoff
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Re: Looking at Solver Solutions And Knowing How/When To Deviate

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Originally Posted by dubakkur2 View Post
NO. - I don't "range cbet" and I don't use this size
I use 1/4 in 3bet pots
I may use 1/4 in SRP if villain plays fit or fold on dry flops
I have 1/4,1/2,3/4 depending on board and villain (still working on it)

edit: in 3bp especially, my bet sizings are contingent on my hand, spr, villain stacks and how many streets I want to play. I don't have a set rule.
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Old 05-25-2020, 05:22 PM   #20
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Re: Looking at Solver Solutions And Knowing How/When To Deviate

Flop questions by dubakkur2:

1) Do I have a good hand?

Yes - don't range bet
No - don't range bet
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Old 05-25-2020, 07:25 PM   #21
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Re: Looking at Solver Solutions And Knowing How/When To Deviate

^^lmao
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Old 05-25-2020, 07:26 PM   #22
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Re: Looking at Solver Solutions And Knowing How/When To Deviate

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read your thread title again - never forget why you are doing this s**t
all these time, sunk $, computing power have to translate into poker winnings

do not end up becoming a 2nl guy with a 1000$ pio mindlessly range cbetting 1/3 with AJo having no clue about board textures and villain ranges
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Old 05-25-2020, 08:31 PM   #23
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Re: Looking at Solver Solutions And Knowing How/When To Deviate

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NO. - I don't "range cbet"
I agree with the sentiment that "range cbet" is very overused, but this misconception exists for a reason: there are a fair amount of spots where it is just best to c-bet with your range for one size, and even more where it's perfectly fine to simplify it as a range bet spot
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Old 05-25-2020, 08:57 PM   #24
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Re: Looking at Solver Solutions And Knowing How/When To Deviate

This is my basic c-bet strategy when I'm IP.

Range bet on boards that are good for my range. Something like AK2. Exception would be marginal Ax hands, Kx and TT-QQ. I may sometimes c-bet pairs under TT as bluffs.


On boards where I have a smaller advantage, I will limit my c-bets to 2 pair or better, some over-pairs and TP (with Q or better kicker). As well as Ax and Kx FD's, strong combo draws and some BDFD (mainly Ax).
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Old 05-25-2020, 09:22 PM   #25
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Re: Looking at Solver Solutions And Knowing How/When To Deviate

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This is my basic c-bet strategy when I'm IP.

Range bet on boards that are good for my range. Something like AK2. Exception would be marginal Ax hands, Kx and TT-QQ. I may sometimes c-bet pairs under TT as bluffs.


On boards where I have a smaller advantage, I will limit my c-bets to 2 pair or better, some over-pairs and TP (with Q or better kicker). As well as Ax and Kx FD's, strong combo draws and some BDFD (mainly Ax).
tbh, you don't need solver for this
equilab/flopzilla would do

check doug hull youtube video on flop textures..see if u can download his excel
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