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Old 01-26-2012, 07:09 PM   #1
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KQs BvB vs a very paranoid reg

Need a check on my preflop line here.

Normally I never ever 4 bet this, but I generally think calling 3 bets oop is just disgusting.

I also noticed this guy is VERY paranoid, in 3 bet/4 bet spots and in blind battles. E.g. I've seen him call a 4 bet with TT oop. He just thinks everyone is making moves on him all the time.

It's probably because he's very aggressive and makes a lot of 3 bet bluffs so I think he assumes everyone else who's not passive is doing it as well.

Could I have played this better preflop? What other line can I take?

Based on my read, KQs is in very good shape vs his 3 betting range in a blind battle.

So.. folding is ridiculous, calling is ****ing awful, 4 betting seems a bit spewy... what can we do?

Just for the record he SNAP called the flop shove with KJ without a moments thought, this is how paranoid the guy is.

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Replayer
Hero ($25)
BB ($25)
UTG ($25.11)
UTG+1 ($54.46)
CO ($26.96)
BTN ($26.73)

Dealt to Hero Q K

fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.75, BB raises to $2.25, Hero raises to $5.50, BB calls $3.25

FLOP ($11) 7 J T

Hero checks, BB bets $5, Hero raises to $19.50 (AI), BB calls $14.50 (AI)

TURN ($50) 7 J T A

RIVER ($50) 7 J T A T

Hero shows Q K
(Pre 76%, Flop 41.5%, Turn 96.6%)

BB shows J K
(Pre 24%, Flop 58.5%, Turn 3.4%)

Hero wins $48
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Old 01-26-2012, 07:12 PM   #2
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Re: KQs BvB vs a very paranoid reg

dont min 4bet, no-one folds
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Old 01-26-2012, 07:17 PM   #3
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Re: KQs BvB vs a very paranoid reg

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dont min 4bet, no-one folds
I make my 4 bet bluffs and my 4 bet value bets this size and people do fold a decent amount.

Not this guy though, so you're definitely right in this spot.

Is that the only thing that needs to change here, just the bet sizing?

The preflop choices on this hand really confused the **** out of me.
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Old 01-26-2012, 07:18 PM   #4
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Re: KQs BvB vs a very paranoid reg

id bet like 4 dollars, and snap jam
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Old 01-26-2012, 07:21 PM   #5
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Re: KQs BvB vs a very paranoid reg

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id bet like 4 dollars, and snap jam
Do you mean 4 bet to 6.25 pre instead of 5.50?
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Old 01-26-2012, 07:23 PM   #6
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Re: KQs BvB vs a very paranoid reg

no id bet 1/3 pot flop, and lol when he spazzes, then folds, or snap calls with his pear
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Old 01-26-2012, 07:24 PM   #7
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Re: KQs BvB vs a very paranoid reg

its hard to not have any 3b calling range at all bvb vs. someone who's pretty aggressive.
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Old 01-26-2012, 07:26 PM   #8
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Re: KQs BvB vs a very paranoid reg

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no id bet 1/3 pot flop, and lol when he spazzes, then folds, or snap calls with his pear
Yeah I think bet/stacking off or crai on the flop are both standard easy lines. That said, it is good to balance your flop checking line in 3 bet pots vs aggro regs like this guy.

The bit I'm having difficulty with is preflop. I didn't really like 4 betting, but every other option seemed worse.
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Old 01-26-2012, 07:27 PM   #9
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Re: KQs BvB vs a very paranoid reg

i'm calling pre

and bet the flop ffs

also, that drivel about balance is, well, drivel
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Old 01-26-2012, 07:27 PM   #10
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Re: KQs BvB vs a very paranoid reg

prety sure this guy wouldnt know what a balanced range was if it punched him in the face
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Old 01-26-2012, 07:29 PM   #11
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Re: KQs BvB vs a very paranoid reg

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i'm calling pre

and bet the flop ffs
Calling a 3 bet oop vs an aggro reg? Really?

There's nothing wrong with crai the flop vs very aggressive villains.

We get a cbet out of his air range and we also protect our flop checking line in these spots. I'd play an overpair the same way some of the time for balance.
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Old 01-26-2012, 07:29 PM   #12
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Re: KQs BvB vs a very paranoid reg

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prety sure this guy wouldnt know what a balanced range was if it punched him in the face
This is why he'll make the mistake of betting air which we can take advantage of.
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Old 01-26-2012, 07:33 PM   #13
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Re: KQs BvB vs a very paranoid reg

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its hard to not have any 3b calling range at all bvb vs. someone who's pretty aggressive.
Very good comment, this is the critical thing for me. As a rule, I never flat 3 bets oop in HU pots.

I've always thought it was one of the worst things you could do, even BvB. It's like burning money to me.

Am I wrong on this one? Is there a consensus on this?
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Old 01-26-2012, 07:34 PM   #14
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Re: KQs BvB vs a very paranoid reg

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Calling a 3 bet oop vs an aggro reg? Really?

There's nothing wrong with crai the flop vs very aggressive villains.

We get a cbet out of his air range and we also protect our flop checking line in these spots. I'd play an overpair the same way some of the time for balance.
yes, KQs plays comfortably well enough postflop + if he's aggro he's gonna barrel our boards way more often. learn to play postflop better? not sure what to say here

as for the second bit, you're completely ignoring respective ranges and reads. like i'm not even sure you know what you're saying
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Old 01-26-2012, 07:39 PM   #15
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Re: KQs BvB vs a very paranoid reg

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yes, KQs plays comfortably well enough postflop + if he's aggro he's gonna barrel our boards way more often. learn to play postflop better? not sure what to say here
What happens when we miss? From the reading I've done, playing fit or fold after flatting a 3 bet is terrible, mathematically doomed to be a losing play, but trying to bluff and make moves oop is very hard.

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as for the second bit, you're completely ignoring respective ranges and reads.
Could you elaborate on this?

If we bet here and the turn bricks off we're pot committed oop and just in a really awful spot in general.

CRAI means we get his cbet when he has air, we get fold equity vs his weaker made hands and we also ensure we get to see both turn and river. It also negates his position advantage so he can't abuse us by floating which this guy is more than capable of.
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Old 01-26-2012, 07:42 PM   #16
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Re: KQs BvB vs a very paranoid reg

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What happens when we miss? From all the studying I've done, playing fit or fold after flatting a 3 bet is terrible, but trying to bluff and make moves oop is very hard.

time to study more

Could you elaborate on this?

If we bet here and the turn bricks off we're pot committed oop and just in a really awful spot in general.

CRAI means we get his cbet when he has air, we get fold equity vs his weaker made hands and we also ensure we get to see both turn and river.

you've just assumed he's betting 100% of his range when checked to. that's a pretty average assumption. we're in a 4bet pot with an SPR of 2 and you want to check an overpair on a texture like this? no, you don't. you preface this with saying villain is a paranoid reg? lol. you're talking about balancing a range to fit this exact hand, forgetting we should have an exploitably unbalanced range going to the flop, one which certainly wants to be betting
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Old 01-26-2012, 07:46 PM   #17
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Re: KQs BvB vs a very paranoid reg

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What happens when we miss? From all the studying I've done, playing fit or fold after flatting a 3 bet is terrible, but trying to bluff and make moves oop is very hard.
time to study more
Great, that's why I'm here. The strategy re: not flatting 3 bets and playing fit or fold is something that I read in SSNLHE, which I've always thought is an excellent book.

If you have something to add which wasn't included in that book, or which the authors didn't know about, I'd love to hear it.

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you've just assumed he's betting 100% of his range when checked to. that's a pretty average assumption.
But it's also a very accurate one given my reads on this guy.

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we're in a 4bet pot with an SPR of 2 and you want to check an overpair on a texture like this? no, you don't.
We're never folding an overpair here irrespective of the turn card. Not vs this specific villain anyway.

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you preface this with saying villain is a paranoid reg? lol.
He is.

Quote:
you're talking about balancing a range to fit this exact hand, forgetting we should have an exploitably unbalanced range going to the flop, one which certainly wants to be betting
If we're in position a bet is fine as we can take a free card.

However, seeing as we're out of position, if we bet and the turn bricks off, what's the plan then? Check/fold or shove with no fold equity?

Last edited by disinformation; 01-26-2012 at 07:56 PM.
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Old 01-26-2012, 07:47 PM   #18
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Re: KQs BvB vs a very paranoid reg

I would flat his 3bet pre and play some post flop poker based on whatever post flop tendancies he has and board texture.

You didnt want to flat as you didnt want to play a big pot with this guy OOP, but you know he doesnt like to fold to 4bets so what has 4betting achieved? got you playing a very Big pot OOP vs this guy.
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Old 01-26-2012, 07:48 PM   #19
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Re: KQs BvB vs a very paranoid reg

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Very good comment, this is the critical thing for me. As a rule, I never flat 3 bets oop in HU pots.

I've always thought it was one of the worst things you could do, even BvB. It's like burning money to me.

Am I wrong on this one? Is there a consensus on this?
i'm not sure if you're misunderstanding me, but i would also call pf. just think about the main reasons that you wouldn't normally flat a 3bet oop. the biggest reason is that in most cases peoples' 3bet ranges, even guys that sometimes bluff, are so strong that you can't really profitably call with much that isn't so strong you could just raise. bvb vs. some guy with really loose 3b ranges, that's not longer the case.

being oop is a big disadvantage, but its not so huge that you can't call getting 2:1 with hands that are in very good shape vs. villains ranges and hit a decent amount of flops.

the reason that nothing pf seems right to you is because you can logically eliminate folding and 4betting, but you still won't call because of following some rule.
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Old 01-26-2012, 07:55 PM   #20
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Re: KQs BvB vs a very paranoid reg

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the reason that nothing pf seems right to you is because you can logically eliminate folding and 4betting, but you still won't call because of following some rule.
Problem is that most of the time we're going to miss completely and fold the best hand.

Like if it comes off 289r and he bets his KJ what else can we do but fold?

There's a very detailed section on this in SSNLHE and I've yet to see a stronger argument than there's when it comes to dealing with 3 bets.
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Old 01-26-2012, 07:58 PM   #21
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Re: KQs BvB vs a very paranoid reg

with KQs you don't completely miss the flop most of the time.

you don't pay even money to call the 3bet in the first place.

winning hands and winning money are 2 different things.
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Old 01-26-2012, 08:02 PM   #22
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Re: KQs BvB vs a very paranoid reg

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with KQs you don't completely miss the flop most of the time.
About 2/3 time we have air though?

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you don't pay even money to call the 3bet in the first place.

winning hands and winning money are 2 different things.
Definitely agree, I just find it hard to see how flatting 3 bets oop and check folding every time we miss can be a profitable strategy.

If we're ip we're not forced to play fit or fold so it's not quite so bad to call, but oop?

Not trying to be argumentative but I just cannot see how this play isn't a massive preflop leak.
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Old 01-26-2012, 08:07 PM   #23
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Re: KQs BvB vs a very paranoid reg

there's more ways to hit the flop than just making top pair. you can also make straight or flush draws, so you'll have something a lot more than 1/3 of the time.

do you think that villain is magically going to not cbet on the times that you do have something?

what do you think is going to happen in all the times you both have something when your starting hand is better than his 3b range?

is this villain going to suddenly not be overly stubborn/spewy when you have the best of it?

the reason that you can't see is that you're not looking too hard.
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Old 01-26-2012, 08:12 PM   #24
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Re: KQs BvB vs a very paranoid reg

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there's more ways to hit the flop than just making top pair. you can also make straight or flush draws, so you'll have something a lot more than 1/3 of the time.
Even if we semi-bluff every draw and commit with any pair postflop, we're still losing money by flatting pre. There's a detailed maths analysis of this in SSNLHE.

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do you think that villain is magically going to not cbet on the times that you do have something?

what do you think is going to happen in all the times you both have something when your starting hand is better than his 3b range?

is this villain going to suddenly not be overly stubborn/spewy when you have the best of it?

the reason that you can't see is that you're not looking too hard.
Obviously when we connect with the board it's an easy game.

I think you're under-estimating how much we lose when we whiff completely and get bluffed, and over-estimating how much we'll win when we hit.
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Old 01-26-2012, 09:07 PM   #25
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Re: KQs BvB vs a very paranoid reg

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Great, that's why I'm here. The strategy re: not flatting 3 bets and playing fit or fold is something that I read in SSNLHE, which I've always thought is an excellent book.

If you have something to add which wasn't included in that book, or which the authors didn't know about, I'd love to hear it.



But it's also a very accurate one given my reads on this guy.



We're never folding an overpair here irrespective of the turn card. Not vs this specific villain anyway.



He is.



If we're in position a bet is fine as we can take a free card.

However, seeing as we're out of position, if we bet and the turn bricks off, what's the plan then? Check/fold or shove with no fold equity?
i just completely wasted my time clearly

also,

'I think you're under-estimating how much we lose when we whiff completely and get bluffed, and over-estimating how much we'll win when we hit. '

lol. this statement is so ignorant
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