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KK OOP vs weak KK OOP vs weak
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04-06-2021 , 09:14 AM
#1
moneypanda
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How we play flop?

PartyGaming - $0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 84.46 BB
MP: 90.58 BB
CO: 133.44 BB
BTN: 165.66 BB
Hero (SB): 104.24 BB
BB: 83.64 BB

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K K

fold, MP raises to 3 BB, CO calls 3 BB, fold, Hero raises to 15 BB, fold, MP calls 12 BB, fold

Flop: (34 BB, 2 players) A J 3
Hero bets 10.5 BB, MP raises to 21 BB, fold,


and another one

PartyGaming - $0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BB): 110.26 BB
UTG: 191.94 BB
MP: 140.12 BB
CO: 108.36 BB
BTN: 71.14 BB
SB: 101.9 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J J

fold, MP calls 1 BB, fold, BTN raises to 4.5 BB, fold, Hero raises to 16 BB, fold, BTN calls 11.5 BB

Flop: (33.5 BB, 2 players) A 4 7
Hero bets 9 BB, BTN raises to 18 BB, [b]Hero??
Last edited by moneypanda; 04-06-2021 at 09:30 AM.
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04-06-2021 , 09:41 AM
#2
PROPOSITION_JOE
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1st one is just lol, what can you do? :/ - do you have meaningful stats on him? we can maybe abandon the range bet and purely bet value if he is either sticky or aggro spazz.

2nd - same thing - neither of these spots are raises for villain (3b pots in position). seems like some good tables.

tag both with these H/H's and move on i think.
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04-06-2021 , 09:55 AM
#3
moneypanda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PROPOSITION_JOE
1st one is just lol, what can you do? :/ - do you have meaningful stats on him? we can maybe abandon the range bet and purely bet value if he is either sticky or aggro spazz.

2nd - same thing - neither of these spots are raises for villain (3b pots in position). seems like some good tables.

tag both with these H/H's and move on i think.
without any stats
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04-06-2021 , 10:04 AM
#4
Lazarus Ledd
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These are both calls on a flop, it sux but I think we need to defend.

I don't know it's puke spot, solver calls both I would assume.

Both can be x/c on the flop. Especially the first one, think checking flop is ok.
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04-06-2021 , 10:07 AM
#5
bailashtoreth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moneypanda
without any stats
I assume you mean you don't have a hud. Write it down then. You can at least use it during the session.

If this is the same v, you may be getting exploited here. You folded A-high flops after getting min-raised both times. That shouldn't happen unless you know v min-raises only with the nuts. And he doesn't have the nuts unless he only calls 3bets with AA.
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04-06-2021 , 10:13 AM
#6
Koss
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These flops seem like check/calls to me. If we bet small and get min-raised calling may be the right mathematical play but the turn/river won't happen in a vacuum. 90% of the deck will not improve us and I'm not sure how many opponents slow down after raising the flop but it's not very often.

Generally speaking I'm not betting JJ-KK on a dry ace high board. We're not getting more than 1 street of value anyways and we have a much better chance by bluff catching or going for thin value on a later street.
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04-06-2021 , 10:19 AM
#7
moneypanda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazarus Ledd
These are both calls on a flop, it sux but I think we need to defend.

I don't know it's puke spot, solver calls both I would assume.

Both can be x/c on the flop. Especially the first one, think checking flop is ok.
And what we do next streets ? Aggression after min raise very often
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04-06-2021 , 10:21 AM
#8
moneypanda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koss
These flops seem like check/calls to me. If we bet small and get min-raised calling may be the right mathematical play but the turn/river won't happen in a vacuum. 90% of the deck will not improve us and I'm not sure how many opponents slow down after raising the flop but it's not very often.

Generally speaking I'm not betting JJ-KK on a dry ace high board. We're not getting more than 1 street of value anyways and we have a much better chance by bluff catching or going for thin value on a later street.
You play range vs range ? Or
make exceptions for JJ-KK
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04-06-2021 , 10:24 AM
#9
moneypanda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bailashtoreth
I assume you mean you don't have a hud. Write it down then. You can at least use it during the session.

If this is the same v, you may be getting exploited here. You folded A-high flops after getting min-raised both times. That shouldn't happen unless you know v min-raises only with the nuts. And he doesn't have the nuts unless he only calls 3bets with AA.
Its different V
,With JJ i am not folding,i have showdown
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04-06-2021 , 10:45 AM
#10
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Hand #1, I'd c/c OTF. You're not getting any better to fold and only getting value from some Jx (and you block KJ)
Hand #2, here there's some merit betting for protection, but I'd still c/c flop
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04-06-2021 , 10:54 AM
#11
moneypanda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsiciliano
Hand #1, I'd c/c OTF. You're not getting any better to fold and only getting value from some Jx (and you block KJ)
Hand #2, here there's some merit betting for protection, but I'd still c/c flop
same questions, what we do next street? after c/c for example blanks cards, again c/c ?
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04-06-2021 , 12:41 PM
#12
Koss
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Usually it's a x/c flop and then a x/f turn. While it seems like lighting money on fire, we face significantly less aggression on the turn, especially when we have the best hand. Of course that's an extremely exploitable line if we don't have some x/c or x/r's in our range, so against observant opponents we need to occasionally play AK/AA this way to maintain balance. But against typical opponents who aren't tracking our play that closely we can just play these spots straight up and not bet into them with anything less than big aces or draws.
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04-06-2021 , 01:42 PM
#13
moneypanda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koss
Usually it's a x/c flop and then a x/f turn. While it seems like lighting money on fire, we face significantly less aggression on the turn, especially when we have the best hand. Of course that's an extremely exploitable line if we don't have some x/c or x/r's in our range, so against observant opponents we need to occasionally play AK/AA this way to maintain balance. But against typical opponents who aren't tracking our play that closely we can just play these spots straight up and not bet into them with anything less than big aces or draws.
Thanks, understand
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