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Old 09-13-2018, 11:45 PM   #1
WillMurderface
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I'm I folding too much?

Nitty fold, but I don't see myself beating much. Somehow it feels like too much but I'm not sure.

PokerStars - $0.02 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 101 BB (VPIP: 15.00, PFR: 10.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 41)
SB: 106.5 BB (VPIP: 27.59, PFR: 10.34, 3Bet Preflop: 16.67, Hands: 32)
Hero (BB): 100 BB
UTG: 101.5 BB (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 6)
MP: 73.5 BB (VPIP: 13.79, PFR: 10.34, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 29)
CO: 163 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 5 A

UTG raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls 2 BB

Flop: (6.5 BB, 2 players) Q A K
Hero checks, UTG bets 4.5 BB, Hero calls 4.5 BB

Turn: (15.5 BB, 2 players) 6
Hero checks, UTG bets 10 BB, fold

UTG wins 15 BB
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Old 09-14-2018, 02:50 AM   #2
pokrr
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Re: I'm I folding too much?

It's fine
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Old 09-14-2018, 04:12 AM   #3
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Re: I'm I folding too much?

Fold is fine.
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Old 09-14-2018, 06:09 AM   #4
Ojune
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Re: I'm I folding too much?

it's fine, you have a lot of pair + gs that are going to perform better
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Old 09-14-2018, 06:24 AM   #5
SuckMyTilt
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Re: I'm I folding too much?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ojune View Post
it's fine, you have a lot of pair + gs that are going to perform better
Is it not a hand that on the turn we can x/r as we have a blocker to TP and more likely to have JT in our range along with say AQ as a flat v an UTG open? or at least call Turn with this? Or am I was away off here?
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Old 09-14-2018, 07:13 AM   #6
Ojune
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Re: I'm I folding too much?

Cr would be very bad, very poor equity when called unlike pair+gutshot type of hand and we're not blocking JT. Calling turn is bad for the same reasons.
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Old 09-14-2018, 08:37 AM   #7
ArtyMcFly
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Re: I'm I folding too much?

Good fold. You can only really continue on the turn with this combo if the turn is a 5 or a heart. (And I wouldn't exactly be loving life on a 5, as you still only have a bluff-catcher with 2prs if villain also bets the river).
This board is so much better for villain's range than yours that your range has to overfold on the flop, and you have to fold anything worse than top pair, unless you also have the gutter or a BDFD. e.g. KTs is a call, K9s is a fold. Even A2dd is probably a check-fold on the flop.
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Old 09-14-2018, 09:26 AM   #8
147Gorilla
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Re: I'm I folding too much?

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Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
Good fold. You can only really continue on the turn with this combo if the turn is a 5 or a heart. (And I wouldn't exactly be loving life on a 5, as you still only have a bluff-catcher with 2prs if villain also bets the river).
This board is so much better for villain's range than yours that your range has to overfold on the flop, and you have to fold anything worse than top pair, unless you also have the gutter or a BDFD. e.g. KTs is a call, K9s is a fold. Even A2dd is probably a check-fold on the flop.
thats why i rather 3bet or fold that type of hand pre vs utg
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Old 09-14-2018, 09:46 AM   #9
WillMurderface
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Re: I'm I folding too much?

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Originally Posted by 147Gorilla View Post
thats why i rather 3bet or fold that type of hand pre vs utg
I usually do but villain has some nitty stats. To be honest I got too carried by this cause I don't have a reliable sample.
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Old 09-14-2018, 10:19 AM   #10
Alci
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Re: I'm I folding too much?

I'm not folding this turn. I'm probably not defending A5s BBvUTG though.
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Old 09-14-2018, 12:48 PM   #11
brigate
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Re: I'm I folding too much?

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I'm not folding this turn. I'm probably not defending A5s BBvUTG though.
sounds like 2 wrongs.
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Old 09-14-2018, 01:26 PM   #12
Ojune
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Re: I'm I folding too much?

^
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Old 09-14-2018, 02:11 PM   #13
ArtyMcFly
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Re: I'm I folding too much?

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Originally Posted by 147Gorilla View Post
thats why i rather 3bet or fold that type of hand pre vs utg
I don't think you should be 3-betting this hand, or A2s (or many hands at all) in BB v UTG, because villain doesn't fold many better hands, or call with worse. His range is obviously very strong, so you shouldn't try bluffing into it with hands that don't play very well vs what he continues with, especially as he has position.
This particular flop is especially good for villain's range, so you have to check-fold this flop at a very high frequency (you have so many underpairs and suited connectors that completely whiffed), but on other boards, your Ax hands will play well enough to break even as calls pre-flop. You're mostly looking to flop 2prs+ or draws, not top pairs, though.
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Old 09-14-2018, 03:15 PM   #14
WillMurderface
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Re: I'm I folding too much?

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Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
I don't think you should be 3-betting this hand, or A2s (or many hands at all) in BB v UTG, because villain doesn't fold many better hands, or call with worse. His range is obviously very strong, so you shouldn't try bluffing into it with hands that don't play very well vs what he continues with, especially as he has position.
This particular flop is especially good for villain's range, so you have to check-fold this flop at a very high frequency (you have so many underpairs and suited connectors that completely whiffed), but on other boards, your Ax hands will play well enough to break even as calls pre-flop. You're mostly looking to flop 2prs+ or draws, not top pairs, though.
Is it a limit specific advise or are you really never 3b bluff BBvEP/MP?

One more question. Do you think A2s-A8s should be calls in this spots?
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Old 09-14-2018, 03:59 PM   #15
Alci
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Re: I'm I folding too much?

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Originally Posted by brigate View Post
sounds like 2 wrongs.
What's the reasoning to support defending A5s BBvUTG?

It seems like it's too weak to flat. If it's 3B, how does it fare against an UTG 3B calling range? Domination is always a concern on ace high flops. In short it will always be problematic PoF. Take this hand as an example. A5s flops one of the best hands it could hope for and it's folded OTT getting ~3:1
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Old 09-14-2018, 04:29 PM   #16
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Re: I'm I folding too much?

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Originally Posted by Alci View Post
What's the reasoning to support defending A5s BBvUTG?

It seems like it's too weak to flat. If it's 3B, how does it fare against an UTG 3B calling range? Domination is always a concern on ace high flops. In short it will always be problematic PoF. Take this hand as an example. A5s flops one of the best hands it could hope for and it's folded OTT getting ~3:1
none of these statements are correct
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Old 09-14-2018, 04:30 PM   #17
tassie
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Re: I'm I folding too much?

Fold
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Old 09-14-2018, 06:56 PM   #18
Alci
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Re: I'm I folding too much?

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Originally Posted by DooDooPoker View Post
none of these statements are correct
Could you be a little more specific?
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Old 09-14-2018, 07:32 PM   #19
ArtyMcFly
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Re: I'm I folding too much?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WillMurderface View Post
Is it a limit specific advise or are you really never 3b bluff BBvEP/MP?
One more question. Do you think A2s-A8s should be calls in this spots?
Not limit specific. My strat stuff is mainly drawn from Snowie and looking at a few solver spots, although I've not done much studying recently, so I'm a bit rusty.
I think there are very few hands that want to 3b and stack off in BBvUTG (the range is a little wider vs MP), and your "bluffing" range is correspondingly small. Your 3bet/folds are mostly strong hands with blockers to villain's very strongest hands.
e.g. I think JJ, AQs and AKo (along with AJs, KQs at some frequency) are actually 3b/folds, because UTG's 4-bet range should be heavily weighted towards AA (with some KK and AKs). UTG is mostly flatting in position (with setmines, and suited Broadways, suited aces and AQ, but even KK can just call vs a 3-bet by BB).
If you're 3-betting in the BB and UTG is flatting QQ-88 and JTs+, A5s is in pretty bad shape, because villain never makes a worse top pair, and doesn't have many combos you can overflush. You ideally need two overcards (like AQs) to his set-mining hands if you want some real equity against what he flats.

It's a very different spot to SB or BB vs BTN, as the button has so much more junk in his continuance range. UTG doesn't even start with junk, so his continuance range is very strong.

All this said, bad players at microstakes will tend to do one of two things:
Fold too often vs the 3-bet, because they think "Villain is 3-betting my UTG open, he must have QQ+" (which would mean A5s might become more profitable as a 3-bet than a call due to fold equity), or they call too often. If it's the latter, A5s will either play very badly, or fairly well, depending on villain's post-flop tendencies. (Some people will never fold a pair of tens on K42xx, even though you rep AK+ so hard, while others can't wait to fold their underpairs as failed set-mines).

On my charts, I've got A9s-A2s as calls in the BB vs UTG 3x opens, but none of these hands are very profitable. (You could just fold stuff like A2s and A6s). Very few hands are +EV vs an UTG range, because you've got the twin advantages of being up against a very strong range, and being OOP. You just have to try and get back 2bb from a 6.5bb pot to break even.

EDIT: I just had to refresh my memory on what Snowie does in BB vs a 3x open at 100NL (it would be much tighter in the micros), and it actually flats AKo most of the time. It does actually 3-bet A5s at 10% frequency (mostly calls), but when I built my default ranges I stuck with the more "obvious" 3-bets like JJ+, AK, AQs.



Note: I wouldn't call with all the suited gappers (like 53s) at 10NL or lower, the rake is too high to be seeing the flop very often with very weak hands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alci View Post
A5s flops one of the best hands it could hope for and it's folded OTT getting ~3:1
This is a pretty bad flop for A5hh, given villain's range. The good flops for this combo (apart from the obvious 432 or A55) are those with two hearts, a five, or some kind of gutter. Your equity with A5s vs UTG comes from making flushes/straights and trip fives, not from making a dominated top pair on a board where villain has all the sets, two pairs and the nut straight in his range.
This is like the "ultimate" flop for UTG. It's a terrible flop for BB's range. BB prefers stuff like 753 or 986 which miss UTG's Broadway-heavy range.
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Old 09-17-2018, 07:10 AM   #20
ekorbrofog
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Re: I'm I folding too much?

That feeling you had is probably more about there has to be a better way to play BB A5s vs UTG open at NL2.

A 3bet folds out better hands and now it's more protected towards postflop equity realization.
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Old 09-17-2018, 09:22 AM   #21
Alci
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Re: I'm I folding too much?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
...


This is a pretty bad flop for A5hh, given villain's range. The good flops for this combo (apart from the obvious 432 or A55) are those with two hearts, a five, or some kind of gutter. Your equity with A5s vs UTG comes from making flushes/straights and trip fives, not from making a dominated top pair on a board where villain has all the sets, two pairs and the nut straight in his range.
This is like the "ultimate" flop for UTG. It's a terrible flop for BB's range. BB prefers stuff like 753 or 986 which miss UTG's Broadway-heavy range.
That's interesting. So if A5s is used as a bluff in this spot, we looking for a FD ~10% or a 5 on a non-broadway flop. That's going to make PoF decisions very difficult.
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Old 09-17-2018, 09:38 AM   #22
ArtyMcFly
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Re: I'm I folding too much?

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Originally Posted by Alci View Post
That's interesting. So if A5s is used as a bluff in this spot, we looking for a FD ~10% or a 5 on a non-broadway flop. That's going to make PoF decisions very difficult.
You could also hit an ace and then play cautiously with it as a bluff-catcher. But it bears repeating that most of your EV when you 3-bet A5s in this spot comes from getting villain to fold pre. (You have a blocker to his 4-bets and his flat calls). When you're 3-betting light, you don't want to see a flop at all, so when I have a hand like this and I know it's also +EV to flat, I usually flat. I generally only 3-bet it if I know villain opens too wide and then folds to 3-bets too often. Readless at 2NL, I'd always flat pre in this spot, since A5s will do reasonably well in a single-raised pot whether villain is loose or tight. It's only going to clearly be more +EV as a 3-bet if villain has some kind of imbalance, like not defending vs 3-bets very well.
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Old 09-17-2018, 10:51 AM   #23
ULTRACURRY
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Re: I'm I folding too much?

Not at all.. if he is as nit as you say.. it's a standard fold..

I think this can be a fold against a reg player in general too.. but Against a Reg, you would be the NIT guy..

Of course, never calling the river..
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