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Old 06-01-2020, 01:07 PM   #26
jeccross
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Re: How do you feel about cold calling facing an open raise and 3bet pre-flop?

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Originally Posted by AlanBostick View Post
Another way to think about it:

Cold-calling a 3-bet is generally a massive deviation from optimal play. If other players involved in the hand are deviating significantly, and it doesn't have to be massively in particular ways, then flatting the 3-bet is an effective exploitative play.
Are there situations where you only want a cold call range deep? Say 500bbs deep and you are playing two good aggressive players, one raises UTG and one 3 bets from MP and you are in SB with AA and they know you are tight.

Fair enough, shoving AA here would obv be +EV, but I think you can make a case that you never 4 bet anything here pre. You don't want to bloat the pot for them to call in position against your face up hand, so don't mind controlling the pot size. If they carry on their raising war after your call then you can raise/shove when there's more potential dead money.
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Old 06-01-2020, 01:13 PM   #27
SelimSuuuup
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Re: How do you feel about cold calling facing an open raise and 3bet pre-flop?

I donít understand how it is hard to fathom that playing IP vs weaker opponents super deep you donít want to be involved with hands that can make nutted hands as well we can massively exploit weaker players in good spots. Sure we are going to lose some and get 4bet some but you make the most money Bb/100 when we exploit at this depth.

I wish some of you never play deep if youíre scared to play hands a bit differently than normal.
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Old 06-01-2020, 01:43 PM   #28
AlanBostick
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Re: How do you feel about cold calling facing an open raise and 3bet pre-flop?

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Originally Posted by jeccross View Post
Are there situations where you only want a cold call range deep? Say 500bbs deep and you are playing two good aggressive players, one raises UTG and one 3 bets from MP and you are in SB with AA and they know you are tight.

Fair enough, shoving AA here would obv be +EV, but I think you can make a case that you never 4 bet anything here pre. You don't want to bloat the pot for them to call in position against your face up hand, so don't mind controlling the pot size. If they carry on their raising war after your call then you can raise/shove when there's more potential dead money.
If they are really tight, I think I would rather have a hand like ATs or JTs than AA for a flat. We can get away cheap if we miss and we can set them up to play for stacks if we flop well.

But if I had AA in a deep-stack situation in the SB, I wouldn't four-bet-shove; that's fish thinking -- "I gotta shove to prevent the bad beat!" I would four-bet, but not go overboard, just enough to make set-mining a bad idea. Say, the open was 4bb and the 3b was 12-15bb, a four-bet to 30-60bb. Sizing is going to depend on what I think of the players and their ranges.
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Old 06-01-2020, 01:54 PM   #29
jeccross
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Re: How do you feel about cold calling facing an open raise and 3bet pre-flop?

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If they are really tight, I think I would rather have a hand like ATs or JTs than AA for a flat. We can get away cheap if we miss and we can set them up to play for stacks if we flop well.

But if I had AA in a deep-stack situation in the SB, I wouldn't four-bet-shove; that's fish thinking -- "I gotta shove to prevent the bad beat!" I would four-bet, but not go overboard, just enough to make set-mining a bad idea. Say, the open was 4bb and the 3b was 12-15bb, a four-bet to 30-60bb. Sizing is going to depend on what I think of the players and their ranges.
I am saying they think we are tight though, maybe we just didn't get dealt a hand for an hour or something and we aren't, we are really balanced, but they are going to both read us for AA here.

I know a 4-bet shove is fish thinking, but it's clearly a +EV way to play the hand. A normal sized range with our hand face up super deep oop is not going to be easy when we don't have the nuts. I can see disguising our hand therefore being preferable.
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Old 06-01-2020, 02:45 PM   #30
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Re: How do you feel about cold calling facing an open raise and 3bet pre-flop?

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Originally Posted by jeccross View Post
You yourself gave an example where you could possibly cold call to set mine. Are you saying that setmining in that situation isn't more profitable if you are deeper?
it seems to be really difficult to understand what i say.

i think cold calling can be a thing exploitatively. but i ALWAYS exploit a weak PLAYER and NEVER "exploit" the fact we are being deeper. I would never coldcall playing vs good opponents. even when being Deep stacked. That means being Deep stacked does not make me construct a cold calling range. Having very specific weak opposition makes me construct a cold calling range.
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Old 06-01-2020, 02:59 PM   #31
jeccross
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Re: How do you feel about cold calling facing an open raise and 3bet pre-flop?

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it seems to be really difficult to understand what i say.

i think cold calling can be a thing exploitatively. but i ALWAYS exploit a weak PLAYER and NEVER "exploit" the fact we are being deeper. I would never coldcall playing vs good opponents. even when being Deep stacked. That means being Deep stacked does not make me construct a cold calling range. Having very specific weak opposition makes me construct a cold calling range.
Weak/strong isn't a black/white situation. Clearly you will be more inclined to call v a weak player if you are really deep and you might call at only 100BBs if they are a really weak player. That's ignoring the fact that when the original raiser is oop they are less likely to 4 bet light really deep.

It's a pretty pointless discussion though, as clearly you are incapable of admitting when you are wrong on something, expecting you to call me a troll or something now.
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Old 06-01-2020, 03:12 PM   #32
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Re: How do you feel about cold calling facing an open raise and 3bet pre-flop?

There is 0% chance you'll ever play in deep games Zuko, so don't even think about it.
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Old 06-02-2020, 12:53 AM   #33
dubakkur2
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Re: How do you feel about cold calling facing an open raise and 3bet pre-flop?

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How do you feel about cold calling facing an open raise and 3bet pre-flop?
like this

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Old 06-02-2020, 01:07 AM   #34
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Re: How do you feel about cold calling facing an open raise and 3bet pre-flop?

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There is 0% chance you'll ever play in deep games Zuko, so don't even think about it.
*says some random guy while playing the softest games available*
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Old 06-02-2020, 12:30 PM   #35
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Re: How do you feel about cold calling facing an open raise and 3bet pre-flop?

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Originally Posted by SelimSuuuup View Post
There is 0% chance you'll ever play in deep games Zuko, so don't even think about it.
Some unions on PokerBros have games where you can buy in for 200bb, and if you should happen to double up, well, you're 400bb deep. Never say never.
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Old 06-02-2020, 01:58 PM   #36
SelimSuuuup
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Re: How do you feel about cold calling facing an open raise and 3bet pre-flop?

Zuko 5 years you’ve played micros/lows m.

You have 0 depth to deviate from what you read to formulate your own adaptions mid game.

Don’t trust me, trust the logic.
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Old 06-02-2020, 02:19 PM   #37
Ojune
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Re: How do you feel about cold calling facing an open raise and 3bet pre-flop?

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Originally Posted by Zuko View Post
thank you. i know i am right. but i think you didnt read very careful what i said.
or maybe it is because we speak different language. so i make it very easy for you.

" Positon and Stack size do matter in Poker !!! "


the deeper you get, the wider you open preflop, the wider you 3 bet and the wider you 4bet. what you dont do unless you try being a goldfish is cold calling 3bets.
this x1000
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Old 06-02-2020, 11:26 PM   #38
yasuo
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Re: How do you feel about cold calling facing an open raise and 3bet pre-flop?

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Originally Posted by wacker1913 View Post
Zuko is right - Stack sizes does not matter in poker - NEVER!

Also position is totally overrated in poker - POSITION DOES ALSO NOT MATTER IN POKER - NEVER

lol at "stack sizes does not matter"
position definitely matters a lot
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Old 06-03-2020, 03:01 AM   #39
jeccross
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Re: How do you feel about cold calling facing an open raise and 3bet pre-flop?

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position definitely matters a lot
He was being sarcastic...
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Old 06-03-2020, 03:04 AM   #40
yasuo
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Re: How do you feel about cold calling facing an open raise and 3bet pre-flop?

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He was being sarcastic...

Yup my dumbass missed that
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