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Getting max value? Getting max value?

03-28-2021 , 12:22 PM
Not too much info on villain. Don't feel like I played this hand great. How would you go about playing this hand?

PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): 108.36 BB
SB: 143.48 BB
BB: 105.48 BB
UTG: 100 BB
MP: 18.72 BB
CO: 129.12 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Q J

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, SB raises to 10 BB, fold, Hero calls 7 BB

Flop: (21 BB, 2 players) J 9 T
SB bets 11.04 BB, Hero calls 11.04 BB

Turn: (43.08 BB, 2 players) J
SB checks, Hero checks

River: (43.08 BB, 2 players) A
SB bets 22.64 BB, Hero raises to 45.28 BB
Getting max value? Quote
03-28-2021 , 12:32 PM
i would floatbet turn. villain should have many hands in his range that are worse and absolutely can't fold here as he should have many draw+pair type hands. as played i think river is fine, if your plan is to fold to reraise.
Getting max value? Quote
03-28-2021 , 01:03 PM
I think raising is spewy, just bet the turn. He should be checking range on turn so he still has a ton of hands that beat you and very few that can call as I’d imagine you’re massively underbluffinv this spot. Most of your bluffs would wanna jam not min raise.

I’d bet like 14bb’s ott, and AP just call river.
Getting max value? Quote
03-28-2021 , 11:47 PM
Villain has very few Jx, KQ makes up (by my quick count) at least 10% of his range (all 16 combos). I'm x'ing or c'ing to the river.
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03-29-2021 , 02:35 AM
obvoiusly our hand prefers to bet turn but we have to check some Jx and this is as good a candidate as any so it can't be bad. river i think is a call, i would bet if checked to tho fs
Getting max value? Quote
03-29-2021 , 03:03 AM
looked at it in GTOwizard real quick. obviously things are a little different in reality since their sim is based on villain splitting into 4 different flop sizes whereas real villain probably just has this one, but anyway they indeed have villain checking 85% of his range ott which could be simplified to a range check (the most heavily bet hands are KQ, A5dd/A4dd, and K9s as bluff, but all of these are still checked more often than not. they pure bet 99 when they have it but in their multi-size flop sim they almost never have 99 with the half pot flop sizing). then we bet small with 58% of our turn range, but QJs is a pure check which makes sense to me from a balance perspective (AJ pretty much pure bet, KJ usually bet with some checks mixed in). then otr our hand is a pure call as i expected, but they do jam KJ just under half the time. what surprised me is that when villain checks river, we only bet this combo 32% and check the rest (still pure betting KJ tho). i think the issue is that we just don't have a ton of great bluffs, since we're relying on stuff like T9/T8/88 mostly (we would have bluffed AQ but now it has SDV and has to pure check)

Last edited by JamAdebayo; 03-29-2021 at 03:10 AM.
Getting max value? Quote
03-29-2021 , 03:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by siebenacht
i would floatbet turn.
u wut m8

river is fish vs fish play all around
he has no reason to bet half pot, you have no reason to raise to any other size than all in and trips don't qualify as a jam for value
turn is perfectly fine
if you want to bet trips, bet AJ, gets called by other weaker jacks, doesn't block his xc range, you need stronger bluff catchers in your range than just mps and weak pairs because oop checks turn often and he's not that capped either. he might not have a lot of flushes but he has a lot of straights and trips and those are vbetting river when turn goes xx

Last edited by ionutd; 03-29-2021 at 03:40 AM.
Getting max value? Quote
03-29-2021 , 06:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by siebenacht
i would floatbet turn. villain should have many hands in his range that are worse and absolutely can't fold here as he should have many draw+pair type hands. as played i think river is fine, if your plan is to fold to reraise.
Thanks for the feedback. I did consider betting the turn, but I figured this was my worst Jx, and I would have a fairly decent amount of better hands. I think I like both checking and betting here. River plan was to fold to a jam.
Getting max value? Quote
03-29-2021 , 07:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otium
I think raising is spewy, just bet the turn. He should be checking range on turn so he still has a ton of hands that beat you and very few that can call as I’d imagine you’re massively underbluffinv this spot. Most of your bluffs would wanna jam not min raise.

I’d bet like 14bb’s ott, and AP just call river.
Thanks for the feedback. I think you raise the main issue with my play, which is where do the bluffs come from. There aren't many, and in hindsight, I probably never bluff with this sizing. Basically, I felt like I would get called by a few worse hands, KJ and maybe KQ, and jammed on with anything better. Didn't really think through the bluffs at the time though. And I like the turn 1/3 pot bet. Hadn't considered that.
Getting max value? Quote
03-29-2021 , 07:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamAdebayo
looked at it in GTOwizard real quick. obviously things are a little different in reality since their sim is based on villain splitting into 4 different flop sizes whereas real villain probably just has this one, but anyway they indeed have villain checking 85% of his range ott which could be simplified to a range check (the most heavily bet hands are KQ, A5dd/A4dd, and K9s as bluff, but all of these are still checked more often than not. they pure bet 99 when they have it but in their multi-size flop sim they almost never have 99 with the half pot flop sizing). then we bet small with 58% of our turn range, but QJs is a pure check which makes sense to me from a balance perspective (AJ pretty much pure bet, KJ usually bet with some checks mixed in). then otr our hand is a pure call as i expected, but they do jam KJ just under half the time. what surprised me is that when villain checks river, we only bet this combo 32% and check the rest (still pure betting KJ tho). i think the issue is that we just don't have a ton of great bluffs, since we're relying on stuff like T9/T8/88 mostly (we would have bluffed AQ but now it has SDV and has to pure check)
Thanks for the feedback, got to get myself onto the solver train at some point. Interesting that the solver has a decent frequency small bet Ott. Makes sense as the board has so many possibilities. Interesting that the solver checks this combo otr if checked to. I suppose the solvers protect their ranges better than micro players. If villain had checked turn plus river, I'd assume he doesn't have too much of a check-raising range, but the solver will. And yeah, the big problem with this hand is the bluffs. T9s, T8s, 88, KTs, QTs, Q9s, K9s. I'm not calling those 100% pre either, and that is about 22 combos total, vs all the trips, straights, flushes and full houses I can have.
Getting max value? Quote
03-29-2021 , 07:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ionutd
u wut m8

river is fish vs fish play all around
he has no reason to bet half pot, you have no reason to raise to any other size than all in and trips don't qualify as a jam for value
turn is perfectly fine
if you want to bet trips, bet AJ, gets called by other weaker jacks, doesn't block his xc range, you need stronger bluff catchers in your range than just mps and weak pairs because oop checks turn often and he's not that capped either. he might not have a lot of flushes but he has a lot of straights and trips and those are vbetting river when turn goes xx
River play is pretty fishy, I'll give you that. But, you've got to fight fire with fire as they say. My thinking was that a half pot sized bet was going for thin value. My thinking was this could include QJ, KJ, maybe an ambitious rivered A or a timid KQ. Didn't really believe the KQ would want to bet so small though. So I assumed he may have the odd bluff, but other than that, he was playing fairly face up, and would have to call the min raise with all his value, some of which I beat. Obviously, if I get jammed on, it is a fold. That's my justification for the play, but even with hindsight, I think the call was better.
Getting max value? Quote
03-29-2021 , 07:48 AM
Here is how the hand played out. When I initially saw it, the way villain played kinda made sense. The more I think about it, the more unsure I am about the sizings.

I don't think this is a great spot for a flop 1/3 or 1/4 pot range bet. I just won't be folding enough to that. Effectively, I'll only be folding low pp, suited connectors below 76s which don't have two and maybe AK if that is in range. Not even sure I'd fold AK otf to a 1/3 pot. I think I like going bigger when I do bet on this flop though.

Turn, well, he has a hand which would call most raises, so a x/c makes sense. And river, I can see the merit in betting his hand. He might get called by AQ, AT, and A9. But I think in that case, he should go lower, maybe 1/3 pot (so that my raise can then make some sense). That would involve including the odd bluff (maybe a KTs, K9s, QTs, Q9s type hand), but he'd also have to balance it with some nutty hands to call a jam or jam over a raise, like AJ if AJo is in his range. My guess is he wasn't thinking about that last portion of his range though, maybe not even the bluff portion. These spots where the ranges have so many strong hands are pretty tricky to play though.

PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): 108.36 BB
SB: 143.48 BB
BB: 105.48 BB
UTG: 100 BB
MP: 18.72 BB
CO: 129.12 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Q J

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, SB raises to 10 BB, fold, Hero calls 7 BB

Flop: (21 BB, 2 players) J 9 T
SB bets 11.04 BB, Hero calls 11.04 BB

Turn: (43.08 BB, 2 players) J
SB checks, Hero checks

River: (43.08 BB, 2 players) A
SB bets 22.64 BB, Hero raises to 45.28 BB, SB calls 22.64 BB

Hero shows Q J (Three of a Kind, Jacks)
(Pre 40%, Flop 75%, Turn 82%)
SB mucks K A (Two Pair, Aces and Jacks)
(Pre 60%, Flop 25%, Turn 18%)
Hero wins 127.64 BB
Getting max value? Quote
03-29-2021 , 11:07 AM
yeah i'm interested in villain's flop play. my default is to bet this big and relatively infrequently (maybe 40% or something) but GTOwiz has small sizing as their by far most used size here, and they've overall betting about 60%. what do other people do here as villain otf?
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