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General - Bluffing with flush draws General - Bluffing with flush draws

10-17-2017 , 12:57 AM
I am just so confused when it comes to how to play flush draws.

Let's say we have AK and our opponent shoves the river on AT752 . Obviously context matters, but in general we'd rather not have the K because we want it to be in our opponent's hand so it's more likely he's bluffing with a missed flush draw.

But what about when we have missed flush draws? By having a missed flush draw ourselves, don't we block our opponent from having missed flush draws and therefore increase the likelihood he has a made hand?

For example, consider the following hand:

6max, $100NL
Pre-flop action folds to
Villain on BN ($125) who opens to $3
Hero in SB ($125) raises to $9 with 76
BB Blinds fold, BN calls.
Flop ($19) is Q82
Hero bets $13. Villain calls.
Turn ($45) is 4
Hero bets $30. Villain calls.
River ($105) is 6

Maybe this is not the best example, maybe some would say don't 3-bet preflop, etc. But as played, should we shove river? We're at the bottom of our range and have no showdown value. But we have spades, so it's less likely our opponent was on a flush draw. What was our opponent calling with if not a flush draw? By shoving are we expecting our opponent to fold a Q?

If we don't bluff this type of missed flush draw, then what would be an example of good bluff with a missed flush draw?

I know I'm asking a super general question, perhaps someone can link a good 2+2 thread on this? Or just comment in general on the idea that when we have a missed flush draw we block our opponent from having one himself?
General - Bluffing with flush draws Quote
10-17-2017 , 05:20 AM
every situation is individual, and you should look at it like that. you have to know how many value hands you have and how many bluffs, in this example, it's up to you to know with how many bluffs you get to river, even thought you don't have much SD value, I'm guessing you have some of this hands: AK, AJ, KJ, A5, hands that blocks top of his range (AQ, KQ, JQ), blockers that you don't want to have is Tx and spades, also bad cards is 9x.

One other problem with bluffing this hand vs let's say AJ is that you might win at SD some small % (vs A4 for example).

But there is no general rule since in some spots you will lack bluffs, then it's ok to bluff with missed FD, or if you feel like people will overfold to river bet, then it doesn't matter that much if you block folding range
General - Bluffing with flush draws Quote
10-17-2017 , 05:43 AM
As a very general heuristic: flush draws are great for bluffing flops and turns because they have good equity, and they're worse to bluff with on rivers where no flush is possible because they block parts of the opponent's folding range.

I think in your example on a Q82 flop, it would be better to consider the effect of holding AsKs on the river. Then you'll see that you don't want to block a number of combos that are both flatting a 3-bet pre, and folding river.

The above post is good in highlighting competing factors. Simply because a combo is "worse" for bluffing by the heuristic I mentioned doesn't mean you automatically choose not to bluff it. If your value range is such that you require it in order to have the appropriate amount of bluffs you still might choose it. What we look at is: out of the total combos I have on the river, which are the best bluffs - and that's where you might choose other combos first.

Also, to avoid an issue mentioned in the post above, consider if the river were a 2h so you have absolutely no showdown value with 6s7s. Here, the blocker effect of this combo is minimal compared to AsKs. It's still there if villain would flat some speculative hands like 7s9s or Js7s, but it's far fewer than blocking all the AsXs and KsXs combos. Seven high is also going to be further down your range than A high, and so you might still bluff with it.

This kind of range construction is all about competing factors. You want to block as many combos that call as possible, and villain to have as many folding combos as possible. And sometimes the "best" bluffs will still have some drawbacks, but your value range might necessitate them.
General - Bluffing with flush draws Quote
10-17-2017 , 08:31 AM
As people have said above 76s would be a better hand to bluff with as you are not going to be blocking any of their potential draws. If you have Axs, are they going to be getting to the river with a missed draw?

If you are going to be bluffing your FDs on the river, you may want to look at F and T bet sizes and size down a bit. With larger sizes what is villain going to call with all the way to the river that won't call on the river?
General - Bluffing with flush draws Quote
10-17-2017 , 09:13 AM
1) sorry for my eng)
2) ppl knows, that flush draw good for bluff and i dont rec do 100% bluff with miss flush on river becouse pll will sd you more times. But it is good to do if we have IP.
3) with 76 i think you need bet river becouse 90% that he have weakness Q or draw. if you donk bet 3 barr he put you a set.
But you need reconsider on your plan for next time. you dont have
initiative or possition and you do donk bet with weakness card. what if he have FD? c/f? =\
General - Bluffing with flush draws Quote

      
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