should I call here on the flop or maybe even push? i was puzzled about the right play on the flop. i would like to call because it is turning into a big pot and with a straight i can win big. i anyways decided to fold, because the original utg raiser was short and playing loose aggressive and i was afraid that he will push my flop call. flop raiser was playing solid tag style and i think his raise was valid.


PokerStars - $0.25 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 25.64 BB
SB: 89.32 BB
Hero (BB): 107.44 BB
UTG: 55 BB
UTG+1: 100 BB
MP: 103.4 BB
MP+1: 98.6 BB
MP+2: 107.8 BB
CO: 96.6 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has 4 6

UTG raises to 2 BB, fold, fold, fold, MP+2 calls 2 BB, fold, BTN calls 2 BB, fold, Hero calls 1 BB

Flop: (8.4 BB, 4 players) 7 5 4
Hero checks, UTG bets 4.04 BB, MP+2 raises to 8.08 BB, fold, fold, UTG calls 4.04 BB

Turn: (24.56 BB, 2 players) 3
UTG checks, MP+2 bets 15.68 BB, fold

MP+2 wins 23.44 BB

Even with the pot odds and against 2x this is still a fold pre. In these MW spots you want to defend with hands that can make strong nutted hands like suited BWs or to setmine with small pairs. Even in this case you could still be losing to 86.

Now that you made it to the flop you should be calling. Also, you should be careful with assumptions of possible future actions. You assumed UTG was going to do something but he didn't and you made the wrong decision for your hand because of it. Just focus on making the highest +EV decision for your hand which in the case was to call. If raised then you decide again what is highest EV decision.

if you are folding now, what was the point of calling preflop? hit quads and stack whole table?

This flop stinks for UTG vs our wide calling range. we rarely get to on most flops but we're well within our right to give UTG a hard time on this kind of board. MP's raise kinda derails us.
i think calling > raise >>>fold is where my heads at given the action. UTG has a range advantage but we have all the nutted hands present (MP shouldnt have, but probably is bad can hold the likes of 44/55/77 also). As Bobby says be careful about assumptions what villain will do in this spot. you really need stats here to help guide your reasons for deviating (is he an aggro spaz etc).

Pokersnowie and (i guess) most solvers wouldn't fold here. Even if it was UTG vs BB headsup. Don't think there's too much 86s in our opponents ranges anyway. We also block exactly that combo so there's only 3 of them in the deck.

UTG half cbet is so strange, either he is really fishy or it's inducing play with set

This is closest I could get this is 6max sim I used UTG open, CO call, BTN call. This is our strategy in BB. Note this sim uses 500z rake which is much less forgiving than micro rake so the 50/50 call/fold hands are probably just folds in high rake environments. My point about the 64 and 86 was we want hands that flop nuts or has potential to make the nuts and not hands such as this that say flop a straight but is only the 2and best possible hand.

Good point, it's all about choosing maximally +EV action at a time.

Terrible logic.

its good logic if he's arguing to fold pre, bad logic if he's arguing to call flop (tho i think both points would be correct)

No no. I think he meant you called flop with a speculative hand and besides flopping trips+ you flopped one of the better boards for your hand and still folded. So what was the point of calling pre if you won't continue on this runout?

That was how I interpreted it.

But the logic doesn't work as this is clearly an unusual set of action to be facing. Let's say he had J9s and the flop was 9TQ and we faced this action. It would still prob be a fold. But we wouldn't say if you are folding J9s here, what's the point in calling pre.