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Old 04-04-2021, 01:50 PM   #1
fortank
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Do u call or shove with TP, when Villian threat u to "that point" to go-all-in

PokerStars Hand : Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02 USD)
Table 'Fini' 6-max Seat #5 is the button

UTG: Hero ($3.70 in chips)
HJ: Villain_Short_Stack($1.48 in chips)
CO: Villain_Passive ($2.35 in chips)

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [Jh Qh]
Hero: raises to $0.06
Villain_Short_Stack: call $0.06
Villain_Passive: raises $0.12 to $0.18
Hero: calls $0.12
Villain_Short_Stack: calls $0.12

*** FLOP *** [Qc 7s 7c] [pot size $0.57]
Hero: checks
Villain_Short_Stack: bets $0.26
Villain_Passive: folds
Hero:


When Villian bet $0.26, he only has $1.04 left
If I call the pot will be $1.09,
if he shove the turn like a pro, the line/potsize looke so perfect
His flop bet actually touch that "point", and threat us to go-all-in
so should I ruin his line by raise here?


The reason I go-all-in:
I have the best hand mostly. The small-3betor already fold, the donker(Villain_Short_Stack), is less likely have an overpair, and less likely to have a 7(I guess he prefer to C/R the 7).
Call is not interesting, if turn A,K,clubs (15 cards) he shoves what should I do


So on flop:
1. If Villian donk 0.26 medium size, I will shove all-in?
2. If Villian donk 0.17 small size, I will raise to 0.44 to induce him all-in?
3. If Villian donk 0.37 big size, I will mini-raise to 0.74 to induce him all-in?


If not too many turn cards hurt me, should I still go all-in?
Imagine I have AK on a K72r flop, there won't be many bad turn card for me,
Villian donk into me with a 1/2 to 2/3 pot size, he only have a pot size left,
I should go-all-in 100% of time? I can call with set/low pair, and raise with AK/bluff(like AJ).

I mean, if a player threat us all-in for ur TP by betting to "that point"(leave only a pot size bet behind),
u will let him act, call, re-evaluate on next card,
or u take initiative and shove into him?
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Old 04-04-2021, 02:07 PM   #2
FutureInsights
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Re: Do u call or shove with TP, when Villian threat u to "that point" to go-all-in

There is more to this than you have posted. We need positions.

Also, I know of only 3 positions calling QJs 3bet, BU, SB, BB.

You might need to sign up for Run It Once, and watch some videos on twitch. You seem new here to poker.
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Old 04-04-2021, 02:29 PM   #3
fortank
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Re: Do u call or shove with TP, when Villian threat u to "that point" to go-all-in

Quote:
Originally Posted by FutureInsights View Post
There is more to this than you have posted. We need positions.

Also, I know of only 3 positions calling QJs 3bet, BU, SB, BB.

You might need to sign up for Run It Once, and watch some videos on twitch. You seem new here to poker.

I agree QJs is a hard hand to play oop, but this Villian_Passive only raise to 0.18, which is likely a "small-3-bet", I put him on a medium strength range like TT, 99, KTs, the short-stacker I put him on 22-99, T9s/J9s-65s, A9o,K2s stuff.

When the 3-betor fold, the short-stacker donker mostly like to donk flush-draw, low pair, A9o stuff, If I call, on turn check to him (has position), he can bluff on good card, check to see another free card, he is so comfortable.

I guess in poker the best line to take is the line to make ur Villian not comfortable, so I guess the best line is to mini-raise him, let his draw don't know how to do, let his low pair don't know if I make a move on him.
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Old 04-04-2021, 02:36 PM   #4
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Re: Do u call or shove with TP, when Villian threat u to "that point" to go-all-in

Actually, that was not a mini 3bet (which is why I suggested study). 3bet here against UTG should be 15cents or higher at 2nl. villain did just that.
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Old 04-04-2021, 06:53 PM   #5
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Re: Do u call or shove with TP, when Villian threat u to "that point" to go-all-in

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Originally Posted by FutureInsights View Post
Actually, that was not a mini 3bet (which is why I suggested study). 3bet here against UTG should be 15cents or higher at 2nl. villain did just that.
Thank you for reply, but I still didn't get it.

I raise to 0.06, then there is a call 0.06, is the 0.18 3-bet size too small?

If there is no call, 0.18 is normal size.

But there is a call, so he is like using 0.12 to raise 0.06 open, a mini-raise?
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Old 04-05-2021, 09:51 AM   #6
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Re: Do u call or shove with TP, when Villian threat u to "that point" to go-all-in

That is normal squeeze size
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Old 04-05-2021, 01:34 PM   #7
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Re: Do u call or shove with TP, when Villian threat u to "that point" to go-all-in

Quote:
Originally Posted by FutureInsights View Post
That is normal squeeze size
There is a open 0.06, a call 0.06

In position, the squeeze size should be 0.20-0.26 right?

BTW, there is 0.03 blind money, I think 0.18 is too small for a squeeze, more like a blocking flop raise, and that is a passive player, I put his range as 66-TT,
KJs/KTs/ATs-A2s/AJo/ATo/KJo/T9s this kind of hand. As he has position, this small pre-raise will grant him a free turn card if it worked.

Last edited by fortank; 04-05-2021 at 01:35 PM. Reason: mis type
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Old 04-05-2021, 02:41 PM   #8
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Re: Do u call or shove with TP, when Villian threat u to "that point" to go-all-in

First off, I'd be careful about putting villain on too specific a range.

In any case, a question to ask yourself is what do you aim to achieve with a jam? Actually, it is a question you want to ask yourself with any bet.

Here, if you go all in, what worse hand can call you? QTs? Maybe, but it seems fairly unlikely. If you aren't getting called by worse, then you're not betting for value. But clearly, you aren't bluffing either.

You may think you're mostly ahead of villain, which you may well be, but he can have some stronger hands than you. A7s, KQ, maybe even AQ if he doesn't 3bet often.

However, he can still have a lot of bluffs. If you jam, you make his life easy. He folds all his bluffs, calls all his strong hands that beat you. You're much better off calling, and giving villain the option of continuing to bluff. If you call flop and call a turn jam, you still lose to all those hands you were going to lose to, but you now also get paid by all those bluffs you were going to get to fold with your jam.
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Old 04-05-2021, 04:47 PM   #9
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Re: Do u call or shove with TP, when Villian threat u to "that point" to go-all-in

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjj View Post
First off, I'd be careful about putting villain on too specific a range.

In any case, a question to ask yourself is what do you aim to achieve with a jam? Actually, it is a question you want to ask yourself with any bet.

Here, if you go all in, what worse hand can call you? QTs? Maybe, but it seems fairly unlikely. If you aren't getting called by worse, then you're not betting for value. But clearly, you aren't bluffing either.

You may think you're mostly ahead of villain, which you may well be, but he can have some stronger hands than you. A7s, KQ, maybe even AQ if he doesn't 3bet often.

However, he can still have a lot of bluffs. If you jam, you make his life easy. He folds all his bluffs, calls all his strong hands that beat you. You're much better off calling, and giving villain the option of continuing to bluff. If you call flop and call a turn jam, you still lose to all those hands you were going to lose to, but you now also get paid by all those bluffs you were going to get to fold with your jam.

Thanks a lot for ur reply.

I make some calculation, to prove shoving is way better than call:
Flop $0.5, he bet $0.25,

If he is bluffing on turn with 2 over(6 outs) or FD (9 outs), I call $0.25, river comes A/K/clubs, he get there like 18% of the time.
so he get there 33% of time, 66% not,
A:
If I shoving, he fold all his hands, I win +$0.75
B:
On river he shove, I call 33% of time:
33% -$0.25
33% -$0.25
33% +$1.12 (1.75*82%-1.75*18%)
So I win: $0.2




If he is not bluffing
C:
I shove and lose -$1.25 every time.
D:
If I call, I lose -$0.6 on AVG:
33% -$0.25
33% -$0.25
33% -$1.25


If he is 50% bluffing:
A,C line: 50%*0.75-50%*1.25=-0.25
B,D line: 50%*0.2-50%*0.6=-0.2

If he is 90% bluffing:
A,C line: 90%*0.75-10%*1.25=+0.55
B,D line: 90%*0.2-10%*0.6=+0.12


So, if villian 50%+ is bluffing, shoving? Because even you are wrong, you won't very wrong, but if u are right, u win all the dead money, and let villian to see the river card(even they paid for it) is still wrong on a wet board where they can have 6 outs+?
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Old 04-06-2021, 07:23 AM   #10
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Re: Do u call or shove with TP, when Villian threat u to "that point" to go-all-in

Quote:
Originally Posted by fortank View Post
Thanks a lot for ur reply.

I make some calculation, to prove shoving is way better than call:
Flop $0.5, he bet $0.25,

If he is bluffing on turn with 2 over(6 outs) or FD (9 outs), I call $0.25, river comes A/K/clubs, he get there like 18% of the time.
so he get there 33% of time, 66% not,
A:
If I shoving, he fold all his hands, I win +$0.75
B:
On river he shove, I call 33% of time:
33% -$0.25
33% -$0.25
33% +$1.12 (1.75*82%-1.75*18%)
So I win: $0.2




If he is not bluffing
C:
I shove and lose -$1.25 every time.
D:
If I call, I lose -$0.6 on AVG:
33% -$0.25
33% -$0.25
33% -$1.25


If he is 50% bluffing:
A,C line: 50%*0.75-50%*1.25=-0.25
B,D line: 50%*0.2-50%*0.6=-0.2

If he is 90% bluffing:
A,C line: 90%*0.75-10%*1.25=+0.55
B,D line: 90%*0.2-10%*0.6=+0.12


So, if villian 50%+ is bluffing, shoving? Because even you are wrong, you won't very wrong, but if u are right, u win all the dead money, and let villian to see the river card(even they paid for it) is still wrong on a wet board where they can have 6 outs+?
First off, I'd recommend getting equilab if you haven't got it. When I plug your hand otf vs a 32cc flush draw, the flush draw has 33% equity, so villain should actually call a jam with just a flush draw. This climbs up to 43% with Kc9c. This shortens to between 20-27% on a brick turn. So, if you want to jam, calling the flop bet and then donk-jamming a blank turn would actually be more profitable, as villain can no longer call your jam profitably with flush draws.

You're on the right track with how you're trying to analyse the hand. I'm assuming you haven't used equilab (or something similar) to analyse this hand, although maybe I'm wrong. If you haven't, I can guarantee you will get a lot out of it. It will help your analysis, as it will enable you to use much more accurate numbers.
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