Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Micro-Small Stakes PL/NL Discussions regarding micro-small stakes pot and no-limit hold'em (up to and including 1-2)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-03-2020, 06:33 AM   #1
JamAdebayo
grinder
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: cryami
Posts: 523
BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB?

Pretty similar theme to the last hand I posted, but different villain.

225bb effective stacks. BTN is a below average reg who folds to my 3bs a bit more than he should (tho does 4b on occasion) at 100bb stacks, but IP at 225bb i have no idea what his calling range is.

Preflop:
MP limps, BTN raises to 4bb, SB (hero) raises to 15bb, MP folds, BTN calls

Flop (Pot: ~31bb after rake): A 6 2 rainbow
SB bets 9.5bb, BTN calls

Turn (Pot: 50bb) A 6 2 (K) all rainbow
SB checks, BTN checks

River (Pot 50bb) A 6 2 K (K)
SB checks, BTN mashes the pot button for 50bb

What do we think about BTN's range here, and what are we calling with as SB?
JamAdebayo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2020, 06:39 AM   #2
jay94
old hand
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,406
Re: BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB?

How aggressive is villain here on the river? To me looks pretty nutted. By the way you played this had you look like Ax wheel, type of hand, I would be folding that easily. I guess crying call with AQ, but likely should be exploitative type of fold. I can't see this being a worse hand than AJ here, unless you have some sort of read on him which I doubt, and AJ is even in question. Nutshell statement pot on the river is generally fairly nutted, I would expect his main holding to be some Kx variant. Really doubt a set, although it's not impossible, could be A broadway, but doubtful people don't bet a hand like this like that.
jay94 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2020, 08:26 AM   #3
dubakkur2
veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 3,112
Re: BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB?

first of all this is a reraised ISO pot not a 3bet pot

my range here to reraise btn from sb is {QQ+,AQs+} thats it and that board is highly favourable

rest is grandfather paradox
dubakkur2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2020, 09:18 AM   #4
2019fish2019
old hand
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 1,294
Re: BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB?

I think you can exploitatively fold a lot of top pairs in this spot, weak regs just always have trips here and 0 bluffs when the turn checks through.

In my experience (and you're free to disagree on these) a weak reg at the micros will:
- not iso wide enough
- not defend enough vs your reraise
- not defend wide enough vs your cbet
- bluff too much when you check the turn
- not bluff enough for this sizing on the river

all of these compounding errors make his river range extremely value heavy

in gto land villain should show up with a bunch of hands that he needs to turn to bluffs OTR so you propably cant fold top pair
2019fish2019 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2020, 11:16 AM   #5
JamAdebayo
grinder
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: cryami
Posts: 523
Re: BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2019fish2019 View Post
I think you can exploitatively fold a lot of top pairs in this spot, weak regs just always have trips here and 0 bluffs when the turn checks through.

In my experience (and you're free to disagree on these) a weak reg at the micros will:
- not iso wide enough
- not defend enough vs your reraise
- not defend wide enough vs your cbet
- bluff too much when you check the turn
- not bluff enough for this sizing on the river

all of these compounding errors make his river range extremely value heavy

in gto land villain should show up with a bunch of hands that he needs to turn to bluffs OTR so you propably cant fold top pair
Yeah, in general I agree. I think this particular guy is a little overbluffy though, but not by an obscene amount or anything. And even if he's overbluffing this spot a bit I don't know exactly what we should call with - if he's polarized to Kx and bluffs (most of which would be PPs) then I guess QQ is actually the best K blocker? I'm not sure at what frequency he floats flop with Kx but it makes sense for him to check turn when he does. I assume he 4bets AK pre more often than not but at this stack depth you never know
JamAdebayo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2020, 12:44 PM   #6
AlanBostick
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
AlanBostick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Old Man Red Bull (he/him)
Posts: 10,477
Re: BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dubakkur2 View Post
first of all this is a reraised ISO pot not a 3bet pot

my range here to reraise btn from sb is {QQ+,AQs+} thats it and that board is highly favourable

rest is grandfather paradox
ORLY?

Hero puts the third bet in, it's a three-bet pot. The details of the initial action affect what sort of ranges we put the other players on, but insisting that this is not a three-bet pot is contrafactual.

Absent reads, we do want a strong, linear 3-betting range because of the likelihood of getting called, but your range is so tight as to be leaving a boatload of value on the table, especially with the deep stacks.

The villain has a history of folding too much to hero 3-bets, so this tilts the scales more towards having a polar range. On the other hand, having a third player active in the hand increases the likelihood of a call, so that strengthens the argument for a linear range. I think we want a linear range here, something akin to what we would play against an early opener, which is tight, but not as tight as {QQ+, AQs+}

To answer OP's question, my initial take is that weaker players' deep-stack ranges are not much different from their 100bb ranges, that they don't know that they ought to adjust. Normally this character folds too much and only occasionally 4-bets. So we expect to see here a relatively tight, capped range when they continue.

Villain mashed the pot button, and we are getting 2:1. What bluffs can the villain actually have here? What is the weakest hand they would bet for value like this?

In general I think this is a likely exploitative fold, but your knowledge of the villain may well change it.
AlanBostick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2020, 04:59 PM   #7
Minatorr
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 5,046
Re: BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB?

Bleh spot but not folding any Ax here. Also i think regs tend to overisolate here ip vs fish
Minatorr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2020, 07:18 PM   #8
threatD
journeyman
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 308
Re: BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dubakkur2 View Post
first of all this is a reraised ISO pot not a 3bet pot

my range here to reraise btn from sb is {QQ+,AQs+} thats it and that board is highly favourable

rest is grandfather paradox
This is ridiculous. It is a 3bet pot.

The range you have posted is waaaaay too tight. I'm 3betting 88+ ATs plus and AQ plus.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
threatD is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2020, 07:22 PM   #9
dubakkur2
veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 3,112
Re: BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBostick View Post
ORLY?

Hero puts the third bet in, it's a three-bet pot. The details of the initial action affect what sort of ranges we put the other players on, but insisting that this is not a three-bet pot is contrafactual.

Absent reads, we do want a strong, linear 3-betting range because of the likelihood of getting called, but your range is so tight as to be leaving a boatload of value on the table, especially with the deep stacks.

The villain has a history of folding too much to hero 3-bets, so this tilts the scales more towards having a polar range. On the other hand, having a third player active in the hand increases the likelihood of a call, so that strengthens the argument for a linear range. I think we want a linear range here, something akin to what we would play against an early opener, which is tight, but not as tight as {QQ+, AQs+}

To answer OP's question, my initial take is that weaker players' deep-stack ranges are not much different from their 100bb ranges, that they don't know that they ought to adjust. Normally this character folds too much and only occasionally 4-bets. So we expect to see here a relatively tight, capped range when they continue.

Villain mashed the pot button, and we are getting 2:1. What bluffs can the villain actually have here? What is the weakest hand they would bet for value like this?

In general I think this is a likely exploitative fold, but your knowledge of the villain may well change it.
thanks
that's what i meant not the technical jargon of a 3bet/iso

your observation is spot on reg their ranges - hence i play tightest as per snowie suggestion
dubakkur2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2020, 07:47 PM   #10
dubakkur2
veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 3,112
Re: BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
Bleh spot but not folding any Ax here. Also i think regs tend to overisolate here ip vs fish
their ISO range will be wide but their 3bet calling range will be significantly narrow

I have seen ppl routinely flat JJ-AA ,AK here esp IP
dubakkur2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2020, 08:10 PM   #11
JamAdebayo
grinder
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: cryami
Posts: 523
Re: BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dubakkur2 View Post
their ISO range will be wide but their 3bet calling range will be significantly narrow
then we should be 3betting a lot, no?
JamAdebayo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2020, 08:13 PM   #12
dubakkur2
veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 3,112
Re: BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamAdebayo View Post
then we should be 3betting a lot, no?
depends on their fold to 3bet tendencies. - if they fold a lot - YES

if they dont esp IP, we are better off sticking to linear top heavy range OOP
dubakkur2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2020, 10:24 PM   #13
AlanBostick
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
AlanBostick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Old Man Red Bull (he/him)
Posts: 10,477
Re: BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB?

If their Iso range is wide and their 3-bet calling range is narrow, then they are certainly folding a lot. DUCY?
AlanBostick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2020, 10:38 PM   #14
JamAdebayo
grinder
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: cryami
Posts: 523
Re: BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB?

i assumed most people were smart enough to open up their 3b calling range IP when this deep but who knows

especially BTN vs SB being the 1 hand every orbit that i don't have position on him, i wasn't 3-balling him super light here -- especially because there was a fish in the BB. i had TT in the actual hand and that's toward the bottom of my preflop range at this depth with fish BB
JamAdebayo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2020, 12:56 AM   #15
Minatorr
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 5,046
Re: BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB?

100bb deep here regs will way way overfold otb but cant say its still true at 225bb deep imo even if they r nits
Minatorr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2020, 02:23 AM   #16
ionutd
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ionutd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 11,803
Re: BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB?

AQ/AJ/QQ
ionutd is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:10 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online