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BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB? BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB?

06-03-2020 , 06:33 AM
Pretty similar theme to the last hand I posted, but different villain.

225bb effective stacks. BTN is a below average reg who folds to my 3bs a bit more than he should (tho does 4b on occasion) at 100bb stacks, but IP at 225bb i have no idea what his calling range is.

Preflop:
MP limps, BTN raises to 4bb, SB (hero) raises to 15bb, MP folds, BTN calls

Flop (Pot: ~31bb after rake): A 6 2 rainbow
SB bets 9.5bb, BTN calls

Turn (Pot: 50bb) A 6 2 (K) all rainbow
SB checks, BTN checks

River (Pot 50bb) A 6 2 K (K)
SB checks, BTN mashes the pot button for 50bb

What do we think about BTN's range here, and what are we calling with as SB?
BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB? Quote
06-03-2020 , 06:39 AM
How aggressive is villain here on the river? To me looks pretty nutted. By the way you played this had you look like Ax wheel, type of hand, I would be folding that easily. I guess crying call with AQ, but likely should be exploitative type of fold. I can't see this being a worse hand than AJ here, unless you have some sort of read on him which I doubt, and AJ is even in question. Nutshell statement pot on the river is generally fairly nutted, I would expect his main holding to be some Kx variant. Really doubt a set, although it's not impossible, could be A broadway, but doubtful people don't bet a hand like this like that.
BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB? Quote
06-03-2020 , 08:26 AM
first of all this is a reraised ISO pot not a 3bet pot

my range here to reraise btn from sb is {QQ+,AQs+} thats it and that board is highly favourable

rest is grandfather paradox
BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB? Quote
06-03-2020 , 09:18 AM
I think you can exploitatively fold a lot of top pairs in this spot, weak regs just always have trips here and 0 bluffs when the turn checks through.

In my experience (and you're free to disagree on these) a weak reg at the micros will:
- not iso wide enough
- not defend enough vs your reraise
- not defend wide enough vs your cbet
- bluff too much when you check the turn
- not bluff enough for this sizing on the river

all of these compounding errors make his river range extremely value heavy

in gto land villain should show up with a bunch of hands that he needs to turn to bluffs OTR so you propably cant fold top pair
BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB? Quote
06-03-2020 , 11:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2019fish2019
I think you can exploitatively fold a lot of top pairs in this spot, weak regs just always have trips here and 0 bluffs when the turn checks through.

In my experience (and you're free to disagree on these) a weak reg at the micros will:
- not iso wide enough
- not defend enough vs your reraise
- not defend wide enough vs your cbet
- bluff too much when you check the turn
- not bluff enough for this sizing on the river

all of these compounding errors make his river range extremely value heavy

in gto land villain should show up with a bunch of hands that he needs to turn to bluffs OTR so you propably cant fold top pair
Yeah, in general I agree. I think this particular guy is a little overbluffy though, but not by an obscene amount or anything. And even if he's overbluffing this spot a bit I don't know exactly what we should call with - if he's polarized to Kx and bluffs (most of which would be PPs) then I guess QQ is actually the best K blocker? I'm not sure at what frequency he floats flop with Kx but it makes sense for him to check turn when he does. I assume he 4bets AK pre more often than not but at this stack depth you never know
BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB? Quote
06-03-2020 , 12:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dubakkur2
first of all this is a reraised ISO pot not a 3bet pot

my range here to reraise btn from sb is {QQ+,AQs+} thats it and that board is highly favourable

rest is grandfather paradox
ORLY?

Hero puts the third bet in, it's a three-bet pot. The details of the initial action affect what sort of ranges we put the other players on, but insisting that this is not a three-bet pot is contrafactual.

Absent reads, we do want a strong, linear 3-betting range because of the likelihood of getting called, but your range is so tight as to be leaving a boatload of value on the table, especially with the deep stacks.

The villain has a history of folding too much to hero 3-bets, so this tilts the scales more towards having a polar range. On the other hand, having a third player active in the hand increases the likelihood of a call, so that strengthens the argument for a linear range. I think we want a linear range here, something akin to what we would play against an early opener, which is tight, but not as tight as {QQ+, AQs+}

To answer OP's question, my initial take is that weaker players' deep-stack ranges are not much different from their 100bb ranges, that they don't know that they ought to adjust. Normally this character folds too much and only occasionally 4-bets. So we expect to see here a relatively tight, capped range when they continue.

Villain mashed the pot button, and we are getting 2:1. What bluffs can the villain actually have here? What is the weakest hand they would bet for value like this?

In general I think this is a likely exploitative fold, but your knowledge of the villain may well change it.
BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB? Quote
06-03-2020 , 04:59 PM
Bleh spot but not folding any Ax here. Also i think regs tend to overisolate here ip vs fish
BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB? Quote
06-03-2020 , 07:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dubakkur2
first of all this is a reraised ISO pot not a 3bet pot

my range here to reraise btn from sb is {QQ+,AQs+} thats it and that board is highly favourable

rest is grandfather paradox
This is ridiculous. It is a 3bet pot.

The range you have posted is waaaaay too tight. I'm 3betting 88+ ATs plus and AQ plus.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB? Quote
06-03-2020 , 07:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBostick
ORLY?

Hero puts the third bet in, it's a three-bet pot. The details of the initial action affect what sort of ranges we put the other players on, but insisting that this is not a three-bet pot is contrafactual.

Absent reads, we do want a strong, linear 3-betting range because of the likelihood of getting called, but your range is so tight as to be leaving a boatload of value on the table, especially with the deep stacks.

The villain has a history of folding too much to hero 3-bets, so this tilts the scales more towards having a polar range. On the other hand, having a third player active in the hand increases the likelihood of a call, so that strengthens the argument for a linear range. I think we want a linear range here, something akin to what we would play against an early opener, which is tight, but not as tight as {QQ+, AQs+}

To answer OP's question, my initial take is that weaker players' deep-stack ranges are not much different from their 100bb ranges, that they don't know that they ought to adjust. Normally this character folds too much and only occasionally 4-bets. So we expect to see here a relatively tight, capped range when they continue.

Villain mashed the pot button, and we are getting 2:1. What bluffs can the villain actually have here? What is the weakest hand they would bet for value like this?

In general I think this is a likely exploitative fold, but your knowledge of the villain may well change it.
thanks
that's what i meant not the technical jargon of a 3bet/iso

your observation is spot on reg their ranges - hence i play tightest as per snowie suggestion
BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB? Quote
06-03-2020 , 07:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minatorr
Bleh spot but not folding any Ax here. Also i think regs tend to overisolate here ip vs fish
their ISO range will be wide but their 3bet calling range will be significantly narrow

I have seen ppl routinely flat JJ-AA ,AK here esp IP
BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB? Quote
06-03-2020 , 08:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dubakkur2
their ISO range will be wide but their 3bet calling range will be significantly narrow
then we should be 3betting a lot, no?
BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB? Quote
06-03-2020 , 08:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamAdebayo
then we should be 3betting a lot, no?
depends on their fold to 3bet tendencies. - if they fold a lot - YES

if they dont esp IP, we are better off sticking to linear top heavy range OOP
BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB? Quote
06-03-2020 , 10:24 PM
If their Iso range is wide and their 3-bet calling range is narrow, then they are certainly folding a lot. DUCY?
BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB? Quote
06-03-2020 , 10:38 PM
i assumed most people were smart enough to open up their 3b calling range IP when this deep but who knows

especially BTN vs SB being the 1 hand every orbit that i don't have position on him, i wasn't 3-balling him super light here -- especially because there was a fish in the BB. i had TT in the actual hand and that's toward the bottom of my preflop range at this depth with fish BB
BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB? Quote
06-04-2020 , 12:56 AM
100bb deep here regs will way way overfold otb but cant say its still true at 225bb deep imo even if they r nits
BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB? Quote
06-04-2020 , 02:23 AM
AQ/AJ/QQ
BU vs SB 3bet pot - calling range vs river PSB? Quote

      
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