Annoying river in 3pot - Micro Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

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Annoying river in 3pot

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04-21-2018 , 08:44 PM

IamRegend

enthusiast

Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 56

Villain is 26/18, 60% f23b (5 samples), 50% f2cbet (6 samples) and folded 100% to turn bet (1 sample). Do we just shove the pot size bet and hope he has QQ? Or x/c to bluff catch his draws? Though we block nfd. Do we ever x/f?

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37933598

BTN: $6.13 (122.6 bb)
Hero (SB): $13.53 (270.6 bb)
BB: $8.40 (168 bb)
UTG: $5.59 (111.8 bb)
MP: $6.47 (129.4 bb)
CO: $15.93 (318.6 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A

UTG folds, MP raises to $0.13, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.50, BB folds, MP calls $0.37

Flop: ($1.05) 6

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.52, MP calls $0.52

Turn: ($2.09) 2

(2 players)
Hero bets $1.22, MP calls $1.22

River: ($4.53) J

(2 players)
Hero ???

Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.

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04-21-2018 , 09:23 PM

goldFishshark

grinder

Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 402

I'm not sure why you think this is a bad river, since you still have a strong holding... but I like checking here most of the time. It does complete some weird draws (97s, Q9s) and it obviously gives T2P to J10 and 3OK to JJ.. but mostly I think villain is going to have hearts or something like JQ, K10s, Q10s (we block A10), QQ, KK. I think that QJ may decide to bet this river, and QQ, and KK almost certainly will, so you're not losing that much value from those combos. Plus it puts some strength into your check/call range.

Last edited by goldFishshark; 04-21-2018 at 09:31 PM.

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04-21-2018 , 09:54 PM

Feng Shui

grinder

Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 595

Your targeting mostly Tx hands so i would bet an amount Tx feels comfortable calling around 1/3p or 1.50. You could go big to look bluffy and get hero calls but i'm not sure that's the best line in the long run. I think it generates to much fold equity in these spots and we lose maximum when were beat. So i would b/f the river for value/blocker , i dont like checking the river here i think we miss some value and we put our selves in a'lot of very tough river spots when we turn AA into a bluff catcher.

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04-21-2018 , 10:24 PM

simplelessons

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 2,991

We are all in on the river with <pot size bet effective. We want to polarize with our range and this is close to the top of it.

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04-21-2018 , 10:26 PM

goldFishshark

grinder

Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 402

Shows how much I know

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04-21-2018 , 10:43 PM

.isolated

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 21,495

Gotta jam.

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04-22-2018 , 07:30 AM

Ojune

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 5,171

Yea jam with < psb. We need way less than 50% when called.

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04-22-2018 , 08:19 AM

Scott7x

adept

Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 1,186

I would use bigger sizing on the flop and turn. Atleast 3/4

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04-22-2018 , 11:33 AM

IamRegend

enthusiast

Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 56

Yeah I like a bigger sizing OTT, leaving less than pot size bet OTR makes it harder for him to get away from a T.

The issue I had is JJ and JTs are two of possibly 4 value hands we're targeting before the river (ATs & QQ being the other 2). Of course he can have some draws, but he isn't calling super wide so far vs 3bs. I can't see many KTs/QTs, though not impossible with such a small sample size. I assume he probably doesn't hero call 99.

So I'm thinking if he's wider in his 3b calling range we should x/c a lot since he'll have more draw combos, otherwise x/f, being that QQ and AT probably x behind. Not sure if this is logical or not?

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04-22-2018 , 11:38 AM

#10

IamRegend

enthusiast

Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 56

Reason for not shoving is because his value range (that we beat) is so narrow, assuming he's relatively tight vs 3bs.

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04-22-2018 , 12:20 PM

#11

ToiletBowler

adept

Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 1,144

It's a bluffcatcher on this river and you should play it as such. Check/fold your worst ones and check/call your best ones.

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04-22-2018 , 12:38 PM

#12

Ojune

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 5,171

Betting bigger on the turn and smaller on the river won't make it harder for villain to fold a T

Our hand on the river isn't really a bluffcatcher and to simplify it's better to be shoving with 40% when called than check/calling with 35%

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04-22-2018 , 01:03 PM

#13

IamRegend

enthusiast

Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ojune

Betting bigger on the turn and smaller on the river won't make it harder for villain to fold a T

Why won't it? Surely he's more likely to call again OTT vs a bigger bet than to call 3 including a pot size river shove? Plus he gets better odds on a river call if we mash the turn.

Just trying to learn.

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04-22-2018 , 01:23 PM

#14

Ojune

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 5,171

Doesn't matter if you give worse pot odds on the river or on the turn. At the end of the day the same amount of money goes in and villain should stack off at the same frequency (it's not exactly true but I don't want to get into details)

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04-22-2018 , 04:17 PM

#15

ToiletBowler

adept

Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 1,144

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ojune

Our hand on the river isn't really a bluffcatcher

Villain has to stack off with 21% of flop range at most. So we have 20% equity at best if we jam.

Unless you assume 2bets on earlier streets, but this is hoping for a mistake rather than playing solid.

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04-22-2018 , 04:41 PM

#16

Ojune

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 5,171

There's no way with have 20% equity at best if we jam. Most likely something wrong with your caculations/assumptions

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04-22-2018 , 04:47 PM

#17

Rapidesh123

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 8,674

check flop, as played, jam the river

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04-22-2018 , 04:53 PM

#18

ToiletBowler

adept

Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 1,144

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ojune

There's no way with have 20% equity at best if we jam. Most likely something wrong with your caculations/assumptions

All my calls / assumptions are in my last post, no need to post if you’re just going to reply “nah”

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04-22-2018 , 05:12 PM

#19

Ojune

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 5,171

They're not. For starters you seem to assume villain has no raising range on the flop and on the turn

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04-22-2018 , 05:24 PM

#20

ToiletBowler

adept

Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 1,144

I’ve literally mentioned that for me to be incorrect you’d have to assume a raising range on earlier streets.

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04-22-2018 , 05:34 PM

#21

Ojune

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 5,171

Oh true that's what 2bets means! my bad. We have to assume villain has a raising range, no reason to think otherwise unless we ask him (and he tells the truth!).

Anyway here's what pio does : check flop 90% of the time. When betting flop & turn with AA it shoves river half the time (tends to ship with a

) with 35% equity when called. When checking it check/calls with AA w/o a

and fold AA w/ a

If the popular belief that villains call too much at the micros holds some truth then this is an easy ship!

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04-22-2018 , 05:44 PM

#22

ToiletBowler

adept

Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 1,144

On the contrary another belief at the micros is that villains don't bluff enough which makes this an easy x/f by that logic

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04-22-2018 , 06:09 PM

#23

simplelessons

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 2,991

We have a bunch of bluffs in our range, hence why we want to polarize with a shove. We are looking for V to turn his hand into a bluff catcher. We do not want to turn the 3rd or 4th highest hand in our range into a bluff catcher. Think about what your betting range looks like on this runout if you check this hand.

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04-22-2018 , 06:40 PM

#24

Ojune

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 5,171

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToiletBowler

On the contrary another belief at the micros is that villains don't bluff enough which makes this an easy x/f by that logic

Ah! touché
But we need to check in the first place to check/fold, don't want to miss on all that value

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