For quite some time I feel like I am always running in to the nuts with AK and QQ in late position. Are there any player types vs we can fold these hands preflop (except nits and super passive fish). I usually 4 bet/get it in vs players who have a 5 bet range of 2. Sometimes I want to fold vs those who have a 5 bet range of 1 but I can't do it in late position.

Some specific spots are needed.

My personal experience is that stacking off with AK is burning money. You're either absolutely crushed and occasionally flipping. I realise co vs button ranges are wide but people just aren't stacking off with aq these days, QQ is probably the best case scenario, sometimes JJ but rarer.

QQ is close but also probably losing in the long run for the same reasons. TBH I don't really use the 5 bet stat, highly exploitable probably but I don't think I'm being exploited at NL30/50, i just stick to these general guidelines.

I raise AK in the CO, sb 3 bets (TAG with 5-6 3 bet). I 4 bet and he jams. Overall 5 bet range of 1/2.

Seems okay to me. Ranges should be wide enough. Usually in this kind of spot, as long as villain has at least QQ+, AK then our call is +EV.

I guess we could also consider just calling the 3-bet PF, which becomes more of an option when we're in position. I think it's hard to maneuver postflop without giving up a lot of equity and so I still prefer to 4-bet, but I guess it's something people do?

Versus player with tightish resetal ranges (maximum 6-7) it might be ok to call. But against very loose 3 bettors I think is a mistake to let them realize their equity with all their junk hands.

Yeah that's basically the answer to your question with QQ. If they're real nitty you want to keep their hand range wide and not just fold everything you beat and that's exactly what you do by 4 betting against a nit. Even worse you price yourself in against a range that is beating you and when you have QQ against a nit you are def behind their 5 bet range. There isn't much worse then that because it disguises your mistake and makes you just think "standard" when in actuality you ignored information.

This assumes that the nit will never 3-bet/fold which is likely not the case. It's a mistake to look at hands in a vacuum. I'm not arguing that we should 4-bet or not do so, I'm simply saying your thinking is very flawed.

It's not implying that at all. It's implying he 3 bets and folds everything worse than our holdings and that we dont want that. It's also implying his bluff frequency is so low that we would never 4 bet looking for a fold because finding that spot is basically playing the lottery. You can see that be referring to the sentence I'll post below which was exactly before the one you posted I could be wrong. This is just the way I have approached the situation. There are plenty of times that I 4 bet other people with them.

It's possible 4 betting still is the most profitable even against a nit I'm not going to say I know definitively. I don't have my old database to run through on this computer and I've only put 10,000 hands in since I started last month so I can't come up with enough example like that for it to be meaningful. That'd probably require a lot of HH's. Way more then one persons to have a meaningful sample.

*shrug* you can't have it both ways. you're contradicting yourself between both posts.

and just as an aside, i find the "basically playing the lottery" line hilarious considering we are gambling but 4-betting isn't a -ev play and even you'd be hard pressed to argue that point.

I didn't contradict myself at all. You fold out everything worse which isn't even a big enough part of his range overall and completely commit yourself when behind.

I didn't say it wasn't profitable. The time that I 4 bet QQ looking for a fold is the time I'm playing the lottery. You're being somewhat rude. Are you 4 betting looking for folds or for calls/shoves? I really think it seems weak to 4 bet for protection and if his 5 bet is anything under 2% thats just two hands

CO vs SB, don't stack off vs someone that has overall 3bet 6% or less in this positions. Calling will be much better

Def just flatting pre vs 5-6% 3-bet over large sample.

How about flatting versus ranges between 0-9 and maybe include some bluffs like A4s and A5s if they fold versus 4 bets. I find it difficult to play against aggro LAgs or TAGs with resteal ranges over 10 but they only 5 bet shove AK+/Qq.

I just ran into a rough stretch just put a filter in HEM/PT4 for how you're doing with AK/QQ in CO when you re getting in pre vs BU, SB, BB. And if you have a decent enough sample, then you can draw conclusions.GL GL

Working with stats is good we must be only careful to do it right.
Here e.g. we should first compute results of 4b (regardless whether V folds calls or 5bets) then the same for call and compare 4b call and fold.
Now compute result of calling push and compare to fold.
All that with regard to sample size which would be rather poor after 100k hands.

Besides only having slightly -ev 5b call does not mean we should 4b/fold. It could mean we should call 3b. But what happens when our 4b bluff is +ev? Now calling AK decreases our profitable bluffs, we should see it in context. Also having narrow 4b range we must defend more in general, it can lead to being either exploitable to light 3b or defending to weak hands by call.
Surprisingly not 4betting AK can cause we bleed with 65s.