preflop is just fine. It's a pot sized raise, quite standard, no?

not according to like half of people who posted in this thread...
I blame PNLH vol 1

Betting flop makes the hand way easier to play.. Seriously against a player that I know not to be a maniac I could easily bet two streets with marginal holdings when he c/c the flop.. I think it's super transparent.
The problem I have with pf is that villain can call profitably for set-value with smaller pockets (maybe noit too likely from action but anyways)...

Agreed, some people I may call down but not many. Don't really like betting here even with AA, AK. Depends on opponent though.

It's not. PSR = ((0.25 (bb) + 0.75 + 1.25 + 1.25) (pot before Hero's call) + 1.25 (Hero's call)) (total pot) + 1.25 = 6. I'd add +1 blind for being OOP usually.

Nah, only if you don't balance it and always show up with underpairs. In a 3bet pot you can almost always get it in on two streets. You can check the flop for value and to induce bets with made hands, etc. I'd elaborate but I g2g.

how so? I bet 4x his raise? you also realize that if he calls with some crappy PP preflop thats like not that awfull right cause im a huge favorite? and I dont see alot of players even bad ones calling my 4 bet with like less than TT here.

you guys realize if he folds like JJ or QQ here cause I made a huge 4 bet that kinda sucks right?

I dont think being OOP is that big a deal fwiw either in this spot

The problem with balancing ur range is that a random player at these stakes don't pay any attention to that (I fully agree with ur post and almost wrote something about it myself, but the problem is that against most opponents at these stakes balancing ur range doesn't matter much at all). The wider his range pf are the more likely I think it is that u will be bluffed off with the c/c line. If we put him squarely on jj/qq then the c/c line might be fine, but as stated earlier;don't like this against an overaggro opponent

I meant this thread to be more focused on how to play this hand post flop and that preflop is pretty standard..... maybe it wasnt IDK

so to those saying make a bigger raise prelflop to set up a push on the flop what do you do on this flop?

PF is no biggie at all and when looking it at villain wasn't quite laid odds to call for set-value (for some reason I thought he had more than 100bb) so no biggie at all. I just raise more since we have a raiser, a 3-better AND a caller in front, u don't want to play this hand OOP against three or four opponents.. But didn't mean to make this in to a major issue

I agree with last last poster, I would raise more pre because there are going to be 3 opps left to act, all who have position on you. Also, a bigger bet, especially at these stakes, will still get called by JJ, QQ, and much worse.

EDIT to say I never said you played this wrong pre, just how I would play it. Just my opinion

I think we should bet nuts or air on this flop against an unknown. Since we have neither, I think we can safely check and call reasonable bets and c/f the turn. I think it's highly unlikely he double barrels with air in a reraised pot, so we shouldn't mind folding if does bet flop+turn. With a read that he is overly aggressive, you can of course call him down.

Question: I've been told to get it in as many times possible with KK or AA, so why didn't we just shove and get it in pf? That being said, I'd also take option C, and cbet about 1/2 to 2/3 of the pot size and fold to a shove or rr.

Min3b is not AK, people go larger with that. Snapcall is not AA, so I think we're good here 80% of the time. The ace will scare him though, because people always put you on AK. So I'd c/c the flop. If he checks back, I bet turn/river for value.

sick bump

This!

pf raise is too small. I would make it $6ish. You pf raise is too small that some random Ace is hanging around.

As played, MP seems to be really bad, so I assume he is not folding AJ or AQ away. That's the only two hands we fear, but we are ahead of many pp which is the major part of his range.

I don't see a problem b/f this hand to play conservative, but I definitely mix in crai here when I feel it.

Oh wow this tread is ancient.

you are never way behind when drawing to nut flush... (oops just saw it wasn;t three flush board)

Ya easy cont bet then shut it down.

I don't understand why so many people are advocating a continuation bet? Doesn't that pretty much just fold out any lower pairs that we have dominated, while only getting called by pretty much every Ax hand here since villain is never showing up here with less than AJ, and even that's a stretch.

Doesn't a c-bet here pretty much turn our hand into a bluff? What hands are we getting value from when we c-bet?

As played, I would check/call the flop, and probably fold to any turn aggression. I think that way we get value out of JJ/QQ, and I think villain will be very reluctant to double barrel considering the pre flop action. If villain checks behind on flop, I fire on the turn. If villain calls my turn bet, river is either a c/c or a b/f, depending on the board obv.

What do you all think about a c\r here?? When you 4b here, then check this flop your hand is pretty face up, as AK would lead here and QQ\KK (which is pretty much your only hand here) check and AA does either at varying frequencies. A c\r on this board gets you another bet sometimes and also let's you get to showdown cheaper if he checks behind. I would expect for the villain to bet his f\d's, Ax's, and under pairs here, so a c\r will get him to fold a majority of his range and when called, sometimes we have two outs. The rest of the time we're either getting heroed (VERY unlikely) or he is on a draw.

cbet? 6-9

This is an excellent point and has always basically been my gut reaction to situations like this since I first started playing, but I now realize I might not have been thinking about it on a deep enough level. We can bet flop for value against TT-QQ. Mainly we help to define villain's hand on the flop with a bet, which is our main priority.

I used to think so, but actually, no. We don't expect villain to ever fold an ace but we also expect him to never come over the top without AQ+, so if we're raised it's an easy muck.

While I think this line is acceptable at this level, I think it is probably going to be a very costly habit to get into after you've moved up a few levels in stakes. Agree/disagree anyone?

I definitely agree with this line on the turn if the flop goes check check. But I like betting flop and checking turn slightly better against opponents who aren't good enough to float and take it away. So my default line here I think is raise more pre flop, bet flop, check/fold turn. If turn goes check/check, I consider value betting completely blank rivers. I also think about check folding on a J or Q river.

Solid bump, by the way. This kind of hand comes up so often it is really nice to see threads like this get 4 pages of responses.

I disagree with you here on two points. First, defining villain's hand is not my top priority. My top priority is to make +EV decisions.

For example, let's say we know for a fact that villain will never call our c-bet on the flop without an A or two pair and better. Then, a bet by us will allow us to define villain's hand perfectly. The problem is that when he has a worse hand, he always folds, and when he has a better hand, he always calls. So clearly here, defining villain's hand is a -EV play.

Secondly, you said that we can value bet the flop against TT-QQ. So if it's the case that villain is calling our c-bet with TT-QQ, as well as Ax, then what do we really know about villain's hand when he calls? All we really know is that we're either way ahead of way behind, which is what we knew before we bet. Even if defining villain's hand were our top priority, a c-bet here doesn't do this (Again, this is based on your argument that a c-bet here gets value from TT-QQ.)


I don't think this play will ever be that costly because our goal should be to try and win a small pot in this hand. We're never getting three streets of value out of worse hands here, so our goal should be to keep our opponent's range as wide as possible, which should allow us to hopefully get two streets of value, which is all we can ask for.


I'll have to think more about checking flop/betting turn vs betting flop/checking turn. I'll post more after I've sat down and figured out some ranges and how they're affected by each.

Good discussion, hopefully it keeps up. I think hands like this are awesome because they require so much thought and analysis. It really makes you feel like you're playing poker

I'm check-calling the flop, check-folding the turn. If villain checks behind on the turn I'd probably throw out a small value-bet on the river.

C-betting this flop is -ev. If we assume the villain will only call with an A, we are letting them play perfectly by folding out the hands we get value from. If we assume they will call with a wider range (TT+) then we are putting money in a pot and getting absolutely no information in return - we are left just as clueless on the turn.

I agree with one of the above posters that this is may not always be optimal at $100NL+ , but at $25NL this is just fine.