Yeah, you may get away with it sometimes at these stakes, but it's not a generally profitable strategy, especially this shallow.

Get coaching or your going to lose your bankroll. There is to many mistakes for me to do a essay on this. But your not out plyaing anyone. If anything this bad player out played you and you just made bad call. Especially on the turn its easiest fold ever. he 3b 50% he has 57, 68, 64, AQdd QK dd AA-99 you don't even call big bet there with 99. Its easiest fold ever. You winning this pot based on min raise on flop and big bet on the turn is once in a blue moon. Your crushed here most o the time= get coaching

Fold PF as others have stated. Don't justify things when asking about a hand, just consider them and learn from others. While not obvious at face-value, there is a big difference between useful discussion by an OP and refusal to accept and realize a mistake and learn from it.

Lot's of people calling villain a fish saying he is spazzing out, etc. OP has 2 hands with him. Consider him a reg.

This post sums up this thread so well. Lot's of saying things you've seen said in other places but no actual understanding of what it means or why it is so fundamentally wrong.

Best post in the thread.

In 2003-2006 I was as big a reg as there was. As players got better around 2009 I would have 20bi swings more than once a week at 9-16 tables of 200nl. I was like OP until I got good. For me it took backing and coaching from some bigger names I wont put down here - but it was a huge deal for me.

The art of 2+2 involves filtering out all the bull**** posts and determining who is giving actual sound poker advice. Then accepting it and learning. After that, applying it.

It's not rocket science, but it is hard.

Recs are going to spaz and do all kinds of stuff. We should enjoy that and be happy to take a flop.

I actually think folding here is terrible the more I think about it. At first, I didn't realise pfr was short stacked. That makes calling here an absolute must. CO behind us is pretty capped, the sqz is on the small size, villain is short stacked and most likely terrible, I mean come on, you seriously want to fold?

Anyway, in range terms, we obviously 4b QQ+/AK 100% and can make an argument for going wider to deny both villain and CO their equity, so when we flat, this is sort of middle/topish end of our range pre.

As the runout progresses, we definitely have a bunch of better hands higher up our range, so from a theoretical standpoint, we probably don't have to defend this (although a solver may chose this over something 99/TT given our GS, not sure. We have already discussed merit for over pairs vs 77 previously).

Because it aligns with your own logic that is based in 2003

Assuming that 16 years on this forum doesn't change the way one approaches the game, you'd be correct.

actually, it's your own logic that's outdated, this is a standard 4-bet or fold spot. Your reasoning dates back to when people just freaked out about set-mining and stationed their way into early busto.

I think that people don't understand how irrelevant flopping sets in hand over hand low spr spots is to your actual winrate / ability to profitably play the game.

We're not calling just to set mine of course. That would obv be silly.

I think playing 4b/fold is a mistake in this spot, at least based on how I approach poker.

I want to be opening a pretty wide range with fish in the blinds, and also creating a flatting range here IP. Like I said previously, sometimes we can widen our 4b range pre to deny villains their equity, but that doesn't mean we can't have a flatting range in this spot against the one player we want to get into pots with.

Playing 4b/fold would mean we are 4betting 88/99/TT, all suited broadways, suited connectors, 55-77, AJo, I mean come on. That is way too wide. Given this calling is the option for most of these hands. We have position = monumental advantage. They are bad, another huge advantage. CO we can assume isn't going to like super good or anything and will likely play straightforward, especially capped with fish in etc, more reasons to call.

I'm flatting probably 55-JJ, 78s+, ATs+, AJo+, all the other suited broadways etc, maybe 4b JJ, AQ sometimes. It will be profitable against a recreational player. If you think you can't win by doing this, then you're doing something wrong

smh at calling suited connectors against an OOP squeeze from an unknown between 2 players. Why are you doubling down lol

He's short stacked, he's a fish. Secondly, I want hands that hit a variety of textures. Good luck not flatting SC's as part of your flatting range when wet boards flop and can't rep anything/have no bluffs to construct your range with

I am never in that spot to begin with because I 4bet my entire continuing range, why do I have to get board coverage in situations that I don't allow to happen?

You don't but I do because I have a flatting range

This thread is full of doesn't listen / can't read. You are a prime example of people hearing "poker has gotten harder over time, its not the same" and then twisting that into excuses for fundamental flaws in how you play.

I fold pre. I don't 4b 77 vs someone I have 2 hands with and/or against a 60bb stack I know nothing about. You shouldn't either.

Funny you think that back then we were stations. I'd love to see you play 29/26 with a 12% 3b over 1m hands "back then". Let alone across everything from 25nl to 600nl and having a significant WR.

Last, if you have anything over 100k hands tracked, filter your flopped sets out and let me know how much of your overall winnings it is.

You're just spewing rambles. I stepped into the forums today for some nostalgia and figured I'd chat some. Stepping back out, the internet has gotten worse over time.

You are just wrong here.

Man..where do I start??

First..no one who was involved in the hand has less than 100bbs at any point..I saw "short-stack" thrown around there a few times..

Second..the population doesnt 3b/4b sqz less than optimal they just have consistently proven to do it with the wrong hands from my personal experience.

Third..coaching is in my future lol I'm coming from live poker almost exclusively for the last 2 years..I will gladly admit when I'm wrong but villain 3b 50% does not mean he x/mr this flop with 57,68,64,AQdd,QKdd,AA-99.

Fourth..I'm not trying to justify anything, just stating my opinion. I dont know why I cant have a flatting range here. Because CO called my open? He capped his range though..and you cant say hes flatting because the blinds are squeeze happy, he has the same number of hands on villain as me.

Fifth..if you only continue vs sqz by 4b/folding then how are we not over folding?
If we open 330 combos in CO..we have to defend 39% to keep from being exploited preflop.(if I did my math correctly) That leaves 128 combos.
TT+,AK = 46 combos. So we are going to have 2.7ish bluffs to value in our 4b range? Assuming were even 4b JJ+TT for value..that doesnt seem right.

Sixth..when I say "that doesnt seem right" I am in no way implying that anyone else is wrong, I'm just saying it doesnt make sense to me.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Exactly. It should seem obvious why flatting anything is a subobtimal fishy type move in these types of situations.

villain has 100bbs, CO has 200bbs and hero has 136bb.


stick around, I like learning even if some dont

if you actually read what I posted in context you'd realize I was actually defending you haha

We're going to have to agree to disagree. Can't believe regs are advocating having no flatting range IP vs a small 3b from a fish. Crazy stuff itt


Some good points here.

Unfortunately, to all, I crossed up threads. I'm rusty at this. My bad.

Regardless, everything said stands outside of my short stack reference. That was misplaced.

I don't have much to offer these days. Found a couple of hundred bucks on two of the only sites us Maryland boys can play on. I don't need poker, but it turns out I do miss it. But I am sure once I am out of the micro stakes I will have some learning to catch up.

The underlying points here are:

1. Figure out who is good, or gives good advice and listen instead of defending. There were some GREAT players who lost because they were terrible at applying what they knew to the actual game over long periods of time/volume. You are probably not M8kingmoves (there's a throwback).
2. The math behind poker has not changed. Associating when someone played the game to relevancy is terrible. The games are harder because there are more partially-educated players, not because there are now more or less cards in the deck.
3. Getting out of the micros fast involves reducing variance as much as it does improving. Or maybe they are one in the same. Some of that depends on personality as much as skill. Your 4b/F range changes as ranges open up vs specific players. Vs an unknown, 77 isn't a great 4b/f hand at micros. This hand is that simple.
4. Assuming you can outplay a micro player post flop and justifying playing marginal hands / lines at these stakes is bad. They are at microstakes for a reason, and unless you have a TON of hands on them, you never know what they are actually going to do with parts of their range.

What is your 4b range and sizing?
TT+, AK, AQs?

yes, as obvious as that sounds haha. I would also mix in some suited Ax wheels as low frequency dependent on villain, but readless I am looking to essentially punt the top of range here. My sizing considering the cold call would be roughly 2.7x or around there, my standard 4-bet would be like 2.5x

Lol, I say what I have learned over time. I am fully aware of what I am saying. Who are you to say I have no understanding of what I am saying?

If you say something is fundamentally wrong then at least explain why, otherwise what's the point? We are here to learn, not criticise, it's useless wording.

Yeah, don't consider a shortstacker a reg at the micros (why does this even need repeating?).

Don't fold 77 versus a fish who has a lot more potential to have a wide squeezing range that we do really well against. Combined with postflop edge folding is pretty poor.

Also you have only offered advice on preflop action with no advice on postflop play so entire rant is pretty pointless. "Your all wrong" (no explanation as to why or what you think is correct) Super helpful....(then goes on to rant about how bad all these posters are) LOL

Also saying 'everything is fundamentaly wrong' means you disagree with my opinion on postflop. Which means your calling the turn. So if you want to rep being superior to everybody itt by agreeing with the turn call then I really am confused.

I think shoving is better than 4betting by the way. Not in this exact hand (lack of info), but if we know 3bettor has a few more light 3bets than optimal. Feel like shoving is pretty good actually.

Off topic:

solver will tell you to f****** fold preflop. what are we discussing here. you can say you will eat a bar of chocoloate. you can not say eating a bar of chocolate is healthy. This spot has been solved...


back to topic

We are not in the CO. we are MP. knowing what positional battle you are in is very important.

Please tell me you do not open 330 Comobos in MP for 3-4bb ... that is insane and not standard. MP, 3bb preflop you can aim for 250 Combos

yeap... we do lots of folding because we share defense with CO. You do not need to defend 40% to prevent SB from exploiting you because CO will defend at times.
That means BB (sometimes he will coldcall or cold 4 bet) , you and CO must defend a combined of 40+ish % to prefent SB from going crazy. BUT SB is usually not going crazy . that was just a random assumption thrown in here. We have no idea who SB is.

In theory when you 4b JJ/TT vs a squeeze you are supposed to GII vs a 5b. Also you need to understand "value". to flat JJ there will make you less money than to 4b and get it in. but you make money because everyone folds a lot to your 4 bet and WHEN he 5 bets and you get it in you kinda hold your ground.

BUT
1. your spot is complicated because CO should not have a flatting range in theory. so i personally do not have a solver solution for MP raise, CO flat, SB 3 bet. I can imagine that in MP you have to 4b somewhat tighter than many people think.

2. in reality people over call hands in the SB that should be squeezes. that means we get to fold hands that should defend vs a 26/20/9 reg


Final thought.
This is a spot where you are not supposed to make money. You are defending right now. You fight back only beacuse you want to prevent people from exploiting you in future. But fish do not exploit. so even if this play was not -ev would not take that high variance line that wont make any money for you...

personally... when i am in the BB and a Reg opens, i will defend any hand that doesnt loose me money because if i overfold he will run over me. When i am in the BB and a Rec opens and i have a hand that i know is borderline i will just fold and not waste my time beacuse he is not going to notice that i slightly overfold and he is not going to care...

i would suggest you to check out pokersnowies prelfop advise... there are some decent open raise ranges and also some squeeze ranges (sadly no defend vs squeeze)