Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
[5NLz] AQs IP, debating calldown on dry board. [5NLz] AQs IP, debating calldown on dry board.

09-23-2017 , 09:03 PM
Haven't posted a hand in a while. Don't want to wait 24 hours to get the hand history from Ignition so I'm gonna try to transcribe it manually.

No reads because anonymous tables. My thoughts in spoiler tags.

SB: 170 BB
BB: 107 BB
UTG: 100 BB
MP: 194 BB
CO: 99 BB
Hero (BTN): 101 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A Q

3 folds, Hero raises to 2.2 BB, SB raises to 12.6 BB, 1 fold, Hero calls 10.4 BB

Spoiler:
I usually go larger PF but have recently been experimenting with smaller openings when both blinds are full-stacked, assuming that a full-stacked player is a little less likely to be a fish and a little more likely to 3-bet me lightly. I guess the alternative is that I can just assume everyone at 5NLz is bad and always 3x open from the BTN but I'm not really sure if one approach is clearly preferable.

I was a little confused about villain's huge 3-bet size but opted to call. Folding equates to folding a ridiculous portion of my range, and I don't think a 4-bet does much in position (or at the very least, 4-bet/folding and 4-bet/calling both feel gross).



Flop: (26.2 BB, 2 players) A 5 2
SB bets 19 BB, Hero calls

Spoiler:
Feels standard enough. Villain has range advantage on this board texture and so the large c-bet is kind of scary, but I'm really high up in my range. Maybe at the top? I feel like I would always 4-bet/GII with AA and AK PF BTN vs SB, and I'm not calling 22, 55, A2s, A5s PF against his huge 3-bet PF sizing.



Turn: (64.2 BB, 2 players) 3
SB bets 47 BB, Hero...? (Hero has 69.8 BB behind)

Spoiler:
Not much has changed. I don't think villain has A3s/A4s PF due to PF sizing. Granted, I also can't show up with A3s/A4s here, and so I'm still pretty much at the top of my range.

Folding means that I'm folding 100% of my range OTT (less the times that I don't 4-bet PF with AA/AK, I guess). I'm all for overfolding at micros, but I assume I need something in my continuing range.

Between calling and shoving -- if he has a better hand, I probably lose the same amount with both options (if I call I'm never folding OTR getting 8:1, but maybe he checks AK OTR a non-zero percentage of the time?). If he has a bluff, then calling OTT gives me a small chance to eek out his remaining stack, although raising gets him to fold a non-zero amount of equity OTT because the board can complete the straight. I don't think there's much of an +EV difference between the two options. Mostly curious about whether we fold OTT or don't fold OTT.
[5NLz] AQs IP, debating calldown on dry board. Quote
09-23-2017 , 09:25 PM
You have to call it otherwise you will overfold like 80-90%. I'd say you have to call with all of your TP+ in this spot to not overfold.
[5NLz] AQs IP, debating calldown on dry board. Quote
09-24-2017 , 05:14 AM
Who cares about overfolding at 5NL.

Pre and flop look fine, turn is a sticky situation bc villain doesn't have many natural bluffs here but I'm calling since villain can be value betting AQ here. Shove turn, villain is unlikely to bluff river.
[5NLz] AQs IP, debating calldown on dry board. Quote
09-24-2017 , 03:43 PM
Shove turn, villain is unlikely to bluff river.[/QUOTE]

You don't think this hand is at bottom of v's calling range for a turn shove to be the most EV? I think calling at least means that v could be overbetting KK and QQ or worse aces, but shoving might push out everything you beat.
[5NLz] AQs IP, debating calldown on dry board. Quote
09-24-2017 , 04:19 PM
shoving's like 20 more bbs. It's dumb to keep that behind.
[5NLz] AQs IP, debating calldown on dry board. Quote
09-25-2017 , 11:25 AM
not on the hand itself, but how do you find anon tables play compared to non-anon tables. my presumption would be that they play looser but i havent based that on any evidence

Last edited by TCW; 09-25-2017 at 11:25 AM. Reason: typo
[5NLz] AQs IP, debating calldown on dry board. Quote
09-26-2017 , 08:48 AM
If you insist on keeping something in your defending range and the top of your range is a bluffcatcher then the right answer is to fold some % of the time.

Don't raise with a bluffcatcher OTT. Construct a calling and folding range on the river and punish villains who fail to correctly bluff the river.

Given his 12bb 3bet, you don't have much Ax OTT so folding AJ isn't overfolding at all.
[5NLz] AQs IP, debating calldown on dry board. Quote
09-26-2017 , 09:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToiletBowler
Don't raise with a bluffcatcher OTT. Construct a calling and folding range on the river and punish villains who fail to correctly bluff the river.
Surely this is applicable though? \/

Quote:
Originally Posted by .isolated
shoving's like 20 more bbs. It's dumb to keep that behind.
[5NLz] AQs IP, debating calldown on dry board. Quote
09-26-2017 , 09:52 AM
He can also have A2-3-4-5 suited so it adds a considerable amount of combos to his value range alongside AK and AA.
[5NLz] AQs IP, debating calldown on dry board. Quote
09-26-2017 , 02:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikk
Surely this is applicable though? \/
We pay his value bets extra when we're behind. And save his bluffs 20bb.

It's dumb because no one wants to construct ranges facing very small value bets all in, so they throw 20bb down the drain, which is even dumber.

I don't think anyone can provide a better explanation of why they think calling is dumb.
[5NLz] AQs IP, debating calldown on dry board. Quote
09-26-2017 , 02:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToiletBowler
We pay his value bets extra when we're behind. And save his bluffs 20bb.

It's dumb because no one wants to construct ranges facing very small value bets all in, so they throw 20bb down the drain, which is even dumber.

I don't think anyone can provide a better explanation of why they think calling is dumb.
What are we calling turn and folding OTR? Why do we save his bluffs extra by jamming? What if we call and they x/f river because their equity is at 0 along with their FE?

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
[5NLz] AQs IP, debating calldown on dry board. Quote
09-26-2017 , 02:55 PM
Would you have a folding range OTR if villain had a PSB behind or would you station everything? What if he had a half pot bet behind? What about a third pot bet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikk
What are we calling turn and folding OTR? Why do we save his bluffs extra by jamming? What if we call and they x/f river because their equity is at 0 along with their FE?

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
We have to fold and call combos of the same hand OTR.

If we call and villain xf all his bluffs this means he fails to make money from our folding range OTR that we constructed because we realise 20bb is a lot of bb. This also means his value hands make less money than if we jammed turn
[5NLz] AQs IP, debating calldown on dry board. Quote
09-26-2017 , 04:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToiletBowler
Would you have a folding range OTR if villain had a PSB behind or would you station everything? What if he had a half pot bet behind? What about a third pot bet?



We have to fold and call combos of the same hand OTR.

If we call and villain xf all his bluffs this means he fails to make money from our folding range OTR that we constructed because we realise 20bb is a lot of bb. This also means his value hands make less money than if we jammed turn
This post is weird. I honestly don't know what you're trying to say.

It doesn't matter that 20bb is a lot of bbs because we'll be getting nearly 9:1 on a call. The way the action went down in this hand on that dry flop, we're not having a folding range otr.
[5NLz] AQs IP, debating calldown on dry board. Quote
09-26-2017 , 04:34 PM
If you don't see why stationing 100% is a leak, even with lolpotodds, there's not much to discuss
[5NLz] AQs IP, debating calldown on dry board. Quote
09-26-2017 , 04:37 PM
Give me a hand in this hand example that you could possibly fold otr considering how much the sizes pre, flop, and turn narrow our range to Ax+
[5NLz] AQs IP, debating calldown on dry board. Quote

      
m