Opener I have tagged as a whale.

BTN is fairly laggy, tendency to spazz a bit. On a different table, I'd seen him open shove OOP with A8s on a KQQ flop in a 5bp roughly 15 minutes before this hand took place and got snap called by AA. He had a bdfd.

I was playing 6/6 over 50 hands at this particular table below. I decided to range bet otf.

Thoughts on the cbet against this V?

Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: 207.8 BB (VPIP: 70.24, PFR: 40.49, 3Bet Preflop: 22.89, Hands: 210)
CO: 121.4 BB (VPIP: 19.05, PFR: 16.61, 3Bet Preflop: 4.17, Hands: 282)
BTN: 182.8 BB (VPIP: 28.03, PFR: 21.11, 3Bet Preflop: 9.82, Hands: 298)
SB: 91.2 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 18.52, 3Bet Preflop: 20.00, Hands: 27)
Hero (BB): 120.6 BB
UTG: 103 BB (VPIP: 28.57, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 29)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Q Q

fold, MP raises to 2.8 BB, fold, BTN calls 2.8 BB, fold, Hero raises to 13 BB, fold, BTN calls 10.2 BB

Flop: (29.2 BB, 2 players) K 6 9
Hero bets 8 BB

This is an observation from the WPN micros. weak recs tend to limp call with small pairs often. set mining as cheap as possible. the follow up when they hit a set is call flop. x/r turn. occasionally overbet shoving turn.

as for a more general analysis I don't mind a cbet if villain has proven to be spazzy. we want to build a pot for villain when were best. micros don't call for fancy slowplays or elaborate bluffs. a spazzy villain will be showing up with an array of straight draws despite calling the large 3bet pre. as well as flush draws or combo draws.

I have seen spazzy villains limp calling with 89s-Q9s and other suited connectors. of course we will run into sets and good Ks at times

What this guy said.

I don't mind leading against a spazzy opponent as you can still get called by plenty ofworse hands. In practice I'm mostly check calling oft as I don't really want to build a huge pot here oop with 2nd pair.

^ agreed. way ahead / way behind let's check

X is definitely my standard play. My read on the hand to begin with was that, by then, BTN realized MP is a whale and was likely flatting super wide otb. The question I was unsure about is whether he would flat a squeeze wide. If he is, he likely has most SC's with a GS or OESD. I didnt want these hands to see a card for free, which is why I cbet. If I am correct, is this still a clear WA/WB scenario? I sort of discounted TT-JJ, AK since he's probably 3b the whale IP. Also, to go along with his possible SD combos, I also didn't feel like giving his AT's or under pairs a free card was the best play either at the time.

The short answer though would be, as mentioned, we aren't really trying to build a pot with second pair.

Because when V does this...

BTN raises to 35BB...

I take my hand off the mouse and begin to wonder how often is he really semi bluffing when I'm giving him a good price to flat wide.

The answer I came to is not often enough. Thoughts?

Yeah he can be closer in equity to us with this semi coordinated flop so not strictly speaking wa/wb and can have an overcard ofc, obv we can't catch up with Kx often. But based on reads etc he will see a flop speculatively and may not be disciplined/ care enough to have a capped / condensed range on the flop, ie. will have mostly missed this flop so let him spazz imo. I was gonna say as well getting raised is a bit disastrous and we have to fold.

if were giving villain a range of SDs and FDs and possible combos this isn't a WA/WB. He can potentially have a lot of outs. If we figure a large % of his range to be heavy on suited connectors and one gappers then we need to protect our equity against a large % of his range. it would be a mistake to give a large % of his range a free card

Check flop seems super standard here. Like, the quintessential c/c flop hand on this board.

I'm still checking flop against this guy unless you think you get him to spazz out more often with a 1/3 PSB bet vs. a check AND you're confident enough in your read that you really think you can do anything besides fold when he spazzes out.

This isn't WA/WB because if we're ahead we're usually not ahead by much, and if we're behind we still have some decent turn cards that give us equity.

I wasn't completely sure he'd spazz to 1/3 PSB, sort of flipping mental quarters to decide if he was doing it or not. I've shoved in similar spots against Vs with similar stats before(and been called by worse), but, it was with way more history where I was certain of my read. I'd only seen him spazz out once and I was only an observer of that hand. It was also a much larger pot, if that even means anything to this V, idk.

So is there merit to b/shoving? I can't really see b/c as an option since I have no idea what turn cards help him and given what I would have left behind, I would be hard pressed to fold OTT.

I'm less inclined to range bet OOP (more so on a texture like this), but especially against spazzy regs.

Pretty sure the sizing is too small on that texture given the positions and being OOP.

The problem with betting this hand on this board is that when we are ahead it's flipping at best and when we're behind we're drawing to 2 outs or some backdoor stuff, either way not good. I think bet/shoving is basically turning our hand into a bluff and I think we have way too much value to be doing that here.

We can check/call the flop and see what develops on the turn. I'm probably check/calling the turn too especially if it's a brick. If you make sure you do the same with some kings, then you can defend against him relentlessly betting when checked to.

^^ I do have some Kx that will xc down. I also have quite a few combo draws myself I can continue with. When I decided not to worry about his range, as it would only be guessing if he does this with a hand like 98s, 67s, T8s, JTs, etc, I chose to pick a bettet spot.

So xc at least once. What are we doing with JJ?

[QUOTE=Flpmethntsdlr;53511474When I decided not to worry about his range, as it would only be guessing if he does this with a hand like 98s, 67s, T8s, JTs, etc, I chose to pick a bettet spot.

So xc at least once. What are we doing with JJ?[/QUOTE]

And therein lies the biggest problem with betting this flop OOP with this hand. When we get raised we don't know if he has us beat, some kind of draw, just spazzing because of our small sizing, etc. We've put ourselves in a tough and awkward position.

The lower I get with my pocket pairs the more likely I am to cbet because they stand to gain more from equity denial. JJ is still high enough that I probably play it the same way as I would QQ. He'll have more combos of AQ if we have JJ and it sucks potentially giving them a free card but I still think c/c is the way to go. He shouldn't have QQ himself and so QQ and JJ basically have the same value here.

Very true. Although I am not really squeezing with 77-TT. With how massive the rake is, i feel like it's better to keep the pot small with those hands and play straight forward post flop vs these 2 V's.

Appreciate the feedback, as always!! Trying to get better every day.

Yeah my comment about cbetting more as PPs are smaller was more of a general statement. I'd probably 3bet TT+ but don't mind a call with TT either.

My only other suggestion to you is to know what you are looking to accomplish when you bet and have a plan in mind of how you will react to his follow-up actions. If our plan is to fold QQ to a raise then we are so much better off to check/call.

Yeah definitely. My initial plan actually was to shove over what I predicted to be a spazz over a small bet size. I stopped myself when I realized "Hey, I only have 298 hands on this guy." It's just not enough to be sure how often he's spewing, so I decided to alter the plan.

SMH at this forum, again, far too much overcomplicating from certain members. It's NL5, this flop is one of the easiest x/c situations you will come cross, and you should probably realise that, even at these limits. You want to play a 2 street hand here and playing for a medium sized pot.

The line here (barring your Q, BD flush or BD straight coming in) is x/c x/c x/f. He will bet Kx and better 3 times usually and will bet JJ and worse twice and x back river. Super standard, super clear hand.

AP fold flop

Well of course, thought we established the standard play itt, several times.

I'm telling you the line for the whole hand, not just the flop, and also that you're probably spending too much time learning the wrong stuff and over-complicating some pretty easy decisions, given your responses ITT and the hand itself. 30% flop c bet at NL5? Come on dude.

Like I said, super standard hand not really of much of the over-analysis ITT

Okay

One thing you might come to realize over the course of your life is that most people don't care how right you are if you're an *******.

Then those people are idiots. How info is presented is irrelevant. What matters is if it is objectively right or wrong.

I do think the guy in question has never played any poker at the micro's on WPN if he thinks the ultra ABC lines that are usually recommended for 2 or 5NL apply.

That's not quite what I'm saying. I think he gives good advice consistently, and yes, his personality is completely irrelevant to that fact.

I'm saying most people don't want to be around a person who has to constantly be right to the point of unwarranted disrespect.

At least he leaves a few good pieces every time he drops in to stroke his ego.

Absolutely. That does also kind of invalidate his points which would be otherwise correct.

It's all good, you guys get it. The standard line is fine and will make money though.