Yatahay Network - $0.50 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: 180.18 BB
SB: 133.4 BB
BB: 301.66 BB
UTG: 102.56 BB
MP: 103.48 BB
Hero (CO): 97 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Th Td
fold, fold, Hero raises to 2.5 BB, BTN raises to 9 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 21 BB, BTN calls 12 BB

Flop : (43.5 BB, 2 players) 9h Jd 8c
Hero?

preflop can go either way but i like to play mostly with a 4bet anyways...

flop is where it gets interesting, ive heard a case to:
XR flop
cbet 11bb
cbet 6bb?
cbet 15 bb
cbet 21 bb
cbet all in??

so im a little confizzed...
small cbets get snap-floated by KQ and AQ which im not sure is actually desirable...
XR risks a check back..
all in never gets called by worse...

pls help

Preflop is like 50/50 so both flatting and 4betting are fine.

I'd size up the 4bet a little bit, 24BB's is standard vs a 9BB 3bet.

It's a mixed strategy OTF - solvers will use all cbet sizes. If you were to cbet this hand - it would just be a small cbet. It's not a range cbet though since this board is so good for IP.

I just open shipped it,
I figure I have 10 outs against just about everything and he will fold a decent chunk of the time so it’s gonna be +EV for sure

It’s just hard to evaluate the EV of the other bet sizes so idk

I kind like 1/4 pot. All in seems like worst option when ip has a lot of nuts. So what if he floats with KQ, you block Tx anyway

What's wrong with villain floating KQ or AQ? Those hands are likely to lose at sd

I would either x/r or bet 1/4

The AI sizing just folds out worse hands and get's calls from better.

Sometimes I wonder if that’s even a bad thing...
Don’t we want to sometimes make bets that do this?
I feel like it could be good for our overall strategy to just nail down villains response into playing like this.

Even if we just forgot about the theoretical part of why cbetting smaller is better. Population plays worse vs small sizings. You get to put Villain into parts of the game tree he is not familiar with, or he just ends up over folding. Either way - it is more beneficial for you.

I prefer a x/r on this board.

Yeah, either x/r or a smallish cbet. Open-shoving the flop is probably the nut-worst option.

Why? I seriously want to understand your thinking on this for reasons.

Ill take a stab at giving a thought out support for what im saying…
(i will ignore blocking effects for the sake of the math)

Suppose villain is using some strategy in which he only calls with better, and always folds worse…

Lets give him a preflop range to flat the 4bet:
AJs ATs KQs KJs KTs QJs QTs JTs T9s 98s 87s
AQo KQo AJo
99 88 77
= 81 combos


Ok so that means hes calling with hands like:
JTs (3)
QJs (3)
KJs (3)
AJ (12)
89s (2)
88 (3)
99 (3)
QTs (4)
=33
And folding hands like:
T9s (3)
77s(6)
78s (3)
AQo (12)
ATs (4)
KTs (4)
KQ (16)
= 48

First off, lets point out that we have 34% equity vs the calling range.
So the EV of betting 76 is:
+(43.5 (48/81)) - (76) (.66) + (119.5)(.34) = +16.25

What if we just open jam QQ?
Well QQ has 59.5% equity then… so the EV of shoving QQ will be:
+(43.5 (48/81)) - (76) (.4) + (119.5)(.6) = +67

So it lets us have some nice +EV value shoves (88 and 99 are even better)…

And how about on the flip side?

Lets try some bluff shoves…

Well ATcc has 31% equity giving us +10EV

9Thh has 38.4% equity giving us +25EV

So we clearly have some nice things that can happen here due to an open shove.
But less on the math side and more on the logic side, i think it makes sense sometimes to just hammer in a nail sometimes.
It kinda reminds me of jamming a hand like KJ in a tournament. U know ur not really gonna get called by worse, but u do it anyways cause ur flipping with most pairs, and u have pretty good equity against AX. And by forcing ur opponent into calling with those PPs and AX, u get paid off any time u have the monster hand (like JJ+/AK).
I guess the word im looking for here is EQUITY DENIAL. And not just the equity that villain gets by potentially hitting an out, but also the equity he gets from potentially bluffing us off the hand later… or the implied odds he might have if he hits… or the extra chips we dont win when he would have called and lost but instead the board runs off in a way that lets him find a fold. ANd these are all realistic things that could happen given that he has position on us.

^^ Cool that you did all that, but I think x/jam would still be higher EV and is also done for equity denial reasons. I just think that you normally don't want to play your range that way, but don't hate it if it's a low-frequency thing.

It’s sooooo hard to evaluate the EV of the other lines...


And yeah it’s gotta be low freq since I think the only hands that I think really wanna play this way are TT QQ 89 and ATs possibly KTs