X!!! nailed it, if is logic didn't make sense quit poker ... or don't.

But about the troll.... got to admit my hate for LeBron blinded me too but looking back; COME ON

Join Date: Jun 11
Picture: LeBron

On TOP of what was in his posts.


Lastly guys.... don't use math it's overrated.

To be +ev you must be non-zero.

>.< JK!

Thanks, that's a logical explanation. We call his value & bluff range because we think it's a little EV, so we theoretically c/r Jam against the same range we've "guessed", because he folds out the bluffing part of his range in addition to some minor value hands (weak Kx, meh Jx, maybe something else - haven't checked board again); So basically I put him folding at about 55% yeah?

Lol.... I still check / call

Analyzing how 50nl regs played, this thread and other discussions on this site made me realize a few things:

- You can only discuss poker to a certain degree.
- A lot of people who have all their theory **** down still seem to suck at it.
- Math is lol unreliable when you need to weight in all sorts variables of which you have no indication other then wild guesses based on what would make most sense in a perfect world.
- One of the differences between winning and BE players with the same amount of knowledge is that the BE players make too many assumptions about their opponents. Trying to make them fold in spots where they themselves would fold for instance...
- Its in the nature of humans to look for excuses to try and win every pot because we are ego driven by nature and hate to lose, most will never admit that.
- Some people are just mad brosefs.

is this cliffs of this thread?

pretty good post by boobs

Not flaming you amoeba, just wanted to emphasize the pertinent info (for me) after reading Aussie's post here......

this quote by Aussie below answers this ^ and the point i was trying to make earlier Amoeba.

Villain's 3Barreling range is not the critical factor in determining whether a c/c or c/shove is more +EV. Villains b/f info is ultimately what helps us "better guess" his folding frequency. THAT info subsequently helps us determine if a check/shove is more profitable or not. Without that info, you are guessing more with a shove than you are with a call.


Boobs, your post summarizes this thread beautifully, but not as beautiful as the lovely Tatjana Pasalic.

c/r > c/f > c/c

i hope you didn't just say we should donk/f river, if you did honestly no one will ever listen to your advice anymore

you can't explain it in math

Jesus. Been away for the past week and certainly wasn't expecting to have received so many replies. I have only just got back, so will have a thorough read of it later.

Thanks a lot for discussing this so much!

Nah X!!!! thinks c/c is the worst option from one of his posts on this page (correct me if im wrong X!!!) and subs thinks c/c has the highest EV. I agree with subs.

Only found this thread because i periodically search the forums for "gangbang"

You should be my spell checker It's just a typo Dirk Diggler.
Read my earlier posts, I've always advocated for c/c >>>c/f>>>C/D*ckSwingin'.

Don't hate the bluff, just don't think it's necessary. And re listening to MY advice I would hope newbs and regs reading over this thread sensibly come to the conclusion that your advice on electing for macho game theory jerk offs flossing their teeth over thin ass value instead of electing for a good ol' boring check / call here is simply NOT how to proceed as a standard line of play.


You can't. But if you had the villain river stats because he's a reg and you've chalked up some good history and reads, you could mathematically make a more optimum and profitable decision concerning his bet/fold frequency when facing a c/r. And you can rack this data up over time and make such a play against regs that you understand VERY well, over time. Sh*t, works for me. Thought that would be pretty standard at this level before c/shoving rivers.

since no draw came the bluff doesnt look too good for me

We are not sure if he is bet/folding AJ+ at river. But mostly, why do we assume he just has 1 pair most of the time? He obv has all the 2p+ in his range too. And even tho there is a case for bet/folding KJ at river. We all snap river with KJ when playing and feel pretty good about it. Only question it if we are somehow shown a better hand[not gonna happen that often].
Btw, if river c/c is so -ev on this card[a card we expect villain to barrel with all his bluffs], just fold turn.

FFS. Next person to troll in this thread gets a 2day ban.

i had a really long post typed up but im tired and my brain cant properly form my thoughts into words... ill work on it when i get back from out of town later in the week

This thread is why there is $ in poker.

I <3 how X!!! Provokes emotional responses from people who strive to be rational. This coming from someone who did the same a few mths ago. Yay progress(?)

lol subs nice one

can't wait for it

ya that K is a questionable card to use for turning ur hand into a bluff, cause how the hell could u have gotten to the river with a K unless its KJ like everyone else has said? u certainly weren't floating 2 streets OOP against this solid player with K high. also I agree that this villain has to be REALLY GOOD for you to A) need to turn ur hand into a bluff and B) get him to fold like AA, AK or KQ. Since the K hits a huge part of villain's betting range, he should expect u to fold pairs < JJ (i suppose by that logic he'd expect u to fold QQ then too, but im not sure thats realistic), which means there should theoretically be very little value in him going for thin-value with like AJ or QJ either. and again, only KJ should scare him when u shove the river, so I'd expect him to call with all the hands ur tryin to make him fold, namely QJ and AJ. I assume that you put him on something like AJ, otherwise u would not have turned ur hand into a bluff. Props on it working, cause he prob layed something like that down. But after thinking about it outloud like this, I think a simple c/c may have been sufficient in spots like these, because I don't see much value in turning ur hand into a bluff.

bad post

i think so too. i would expect someone with these stats to be doing this with all air, and assume any reg at these levels not vbetting river very lightly unless i've already seen otherwise.

Calling river seems optimistic to me when he can get to the river with plenty of AK combos and he should be vbetting AJ and QQ. Whether or not villain's thin vbetting frequencies are optimal is up for debate though.

I'm sorry but check calling here may be +EV but it is less +EV then shoving.
Both plays may be correct as villain is still cbetting the same hands regardless. If you're ahead to begin with to justify check calling you're even farther ahead when your shoving with the FE you get.

you'll win the hand more often, but you'll lose a lot more money the times that you do lose. its not like there aren't a decent amount of better than 1 pair hands relative to 1 pair hands that are getting vbet here.