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Old 12-13-2007, 08:20 PM   #1
gregorio
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3 betting ranges from the button

Hopefully this thread can spark some discussion.

Hero is on the Button, eff stacks are 100BB.

CO, a solid TAG with stats like 22/18/2.5 or 19/17/2.7 with an attempt to steal blinds 30% open raises to 4BB.

There is no history that suggests you need to start 3betting this villain light, nor any history of you having repeatedly 3bet them recently. Both blinds have high Folded to Steal % and will probably fold to the CO raise.

Which of the following hands would you 3bet, which would you flat-call, and which would you fold, and why?

a) JJ
b) 77
c) AJo
c) KQs
d) JTs
e) 87s
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Old 12-13-2007, 08:38 PM   #2
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Re: 3 betting ranges from the button

JJ: I 3bet 100% of the time.
77: Probably call in position 2/3, raise 1/3. Generally a read thing if I feel he's trying to steal.
AJo: might raise, definitely not folding
KQs: call
JTs: fold, this is probably my least favorite hand to play (QT or this)
87s: depends on my image at the table, probably call though.
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Old 12-13-2007, 09:04 PM   #3
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Re: 3 betting ranges from the button

a) JJ - 3 bet
b) 77 - call
c) AJo - fold
c) KQs - 3 bet
d) JTs - call
e) 87s - 3bet

c, d, and e can be switched up sometimes.
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Old 12-13-2007, 09:08 PM   #4
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Re: 3 betting ranges from the button

Thanks for the responses and keep them coming. I will give mine later, but I will say that I am more likely to call with JJ then 3bet since that goes against the trend so far. I will justify this later.
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Old 12-13-2007, 09:12 PM   #5
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Re: 3 betting ranges from the button

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregorio View Post
I am more likely to call with JJ then 3bet since that goes against the trend so far.
If the trend is to 3-bet JJ for value, then I'll stay with the trend. Not 3-betting JJ is SOOOOO bad especially in position.
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Old 12-13-2007, 09:13 PM   #6
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Re: 3 betting ranges from the button

Depends how they play postflop imo. I'm not folding any of them, JJ is always 3bet, 77 is close to always but that's about my cutoff for pairs depends on my image... the others all based on how often I think they call 3bet and how well they play OOP postflop. The worse I think they are the more I call, unless they always fold to 3bets. Also with like JTs or 87s if the blinds are really loose I'm pretty much never 3betting. I want to play raised pot OTB 4 way plz.
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Old 12-13-2007, 09:14 PM   #7
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Re: 3 betting ranges from the button

3 bet all of them
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Old 12-13-2007, 09:23 PM   #8
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Re: 3 betting ranges from the button

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cueballmania View Post
Not 3-betting JJ is SOOOOO bad especially in position.
Would you care to elaborate, because I disagree and I still think I am right, and I would love to have someone change my mind.
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Old 12-13-2007, 09:30 PM   #9
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Re: 3 betting ranges from the button

a) JJ- 3-bet all day for value/get spr low
b) 77- just call for set value & to keep SPR high
c) AJo- 3-bet to get towards target SPR of 3 or 4
c) KQs- 3-bet for same reason
d) JTs-fold/call- i never 3-bet this one
e) 87s- call to keep SPR double digits
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Old 12-13-2007, 09:30 PM   #10
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Re: 3 betting ranges from the button

3 betting JJ in position is a must against MP and CO raisers. OOP flat calling is perfectly acceptable. All others can be flatted or 3b, but lean towards making it a 70/30 split raising and calling.
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Old 12-13-2007, 09:30 PM   #11
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Re: 3 betting ranges from the button

Only big difference for me and the crowd is I usually fold E...I call plenty pre flop (more than most here, i think), but i like to play 87s with someone more apt to stack off when i hit...this tag aint gonna do it. With him, if i play, i raise.
a. jj raise always
b 77 mix it up 50/50
c aj fold, easy
c kqs call I like to play this in position...and i float alot
d J10s call
e 87s fold or raise 85/15

I'm no LAG, and at 25/50 don't think there is a reason to be.

the 2 different c's messed me up.
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Old 12-13-2007, 09:38 PM   #12
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Re: 3 betting ranges from the button

JJ I 3bet almost everytime and the other hands I will generally call. If villain folds to a lot of 3bets like more than 67% I will 3bet all of these until I can get that % to drop. Calling OTB is much easier with the other hands as you can make your hand or bluff raise his c-bet a lot.
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Old 12-13-2007, 10:47 PM   #13
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Re: 3 betting ranges from the button

Sorry I messed up the alphabet. Apparently I am just learning it or something.

About JJ, I used to think it was an automatic 3bet, but then I watched a Stoxpoker video where Stox and Leatherass are discussing 3betting ranges, and Stox says (and Leatherass agrees):
Quote:
I'm 3-betting AA KK. I'm 3-betting 77, 66, 55, 44. I'm 3-betting strong Aces, weak Aces.... I'm more likely to 3bet 76s than JJ, because it plays good post flop. You play medium size flops with Jacks and you don't need the FE, and you want to get some value out of them.
So I assume they understand poker better than I do, so I tried to understand why they don't 3bet JJ as a default.

The most likely situation when you're in the button and you 3bet a tag who opens from CO is that they will fold. I can't see a decent TAG calling more than about 25-30% of their CO open range, so that means, 70-75% of the time, we are only winning 5.5BB with our JJ (the 4BB raise plus the SB and BB).

I am sure I can average way more than 5.5BB a hand if I just flat call in position. JJ is way ahead of CO opening range, and we will be able win most pots by the turn without improving, picking up at least their cbet, which will be worth about as much extra value as we get when we 3bet PF and they call with a worse hand. Also, if we get 4bet by KK+ and AK, we have to fold, and we give up the chance to hit our set and stack CO, will happen often if we hit our set and they have KK+.

Obviously we will win some big reraised pots when we have JJ, but we also will often wind up being in a lot of tough positions in really large pots. I am happier playing JJ UI for 40BB than for my stack.

The question is whether we win more in the 30% of hands that villain calls with when we 3bet to make up for all the value we lose when villain folds to our 3bet. There can be a lot of value 3betting JJ, but I don’t think it is as clear-cut a decision as everyone else seems to think.
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Old 12-13-2007, 10:51 PM   #14
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Re: 3 betting ranges from the button

With the villain and table conditions described, I:

a) JJ - mostly call
b) 77 - mostly call
c) AJo - fold, call, 3bet, depending on stuff I'm not sure about, like my mood!
c) KQs - mostly call
d) JTs - mostly 3bet
e) 87s - mostly 3bet

There's a pattern there, 3betting the weaker hands. This is because against a solid TAG, I expect him to fold a lot of hands here, and have quite a tight call/4bet range. I don't particularly want to turn our best hands (which are good but not great hands: JJ, KQs) into semibluffs, but I love to use 87s and JTs as semibluffs. AJo is the trickiest to play imo.

If CO called looser, I would switch my actions, and am more comfortable about calling or 3betting with AJo.

Edit: Wrote this before seeing above post, I've pretty much said what he said.
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Old 12-13-2007, 10:56 PM   #15
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Re: 3 betting ranges from the button

I 3bet all of them until they show they are capable of 4betting light. Leak?
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Old 12-13-2007, 11:07 PM   #16
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Re: 3 betting ranges from the button

it depends on who's in the blinds. i'm not going to 3bet a guy with a 77 if there's a couple stations in the blinds waiting to give me free money.
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Old 12-13-2007, 11:10 PM   #17
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Re: 3 betting ranges from the button

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojed View Post
With the villain and table conditions described, I:

a) JJ - mostly call
b) 77 - mostly call
c) AJo - fold, call, 3bet, depending on stuff I'm not sure about, like my mood!
c) KQs - mostly call
d) JTs - mostly 3bet
e) 87s - mostly 3bet

Edit: Wrote this before seeing above post, I've pretty much said what he said.
That's pretty much what I would do for the same reasons, except with AJo I 3bet > fold > call.
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Old 12-13-2007, 11:12 PM   #18
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Re: 3 betting ranges from the button

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaycareInferno View Post
it depends on who's in the blinds. i'm not going to 3bet a guy with a 77 if there's a couple stations in the blinds waiting to give me free money.
OP stated that blinds we tight and will almost always fold to CO's raise. So you would 3bet 77 if you thought the blinds weren't coming along anyway?
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Old 12-13-2007, 11:14 PM   #19
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Re: 3 betting ranges from the button

sorry, i guess i missed that. the only one of those hands that i 3bet in that situation is JJ and 87s. the rest i call with, other than AJo, which blows.
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Old 12-13-2007, 11:37 PM   #20
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Re: 3 betting ranges from the button

just to elaborate on that, this guy is probably raising something like 30% of his hands in the CO, so its very profitable to 3bet him with atc. of course, we're not going to 3bet him every single time he raises from the CO, so there's no reason to waste any hands that we can profitable call with on a 3b, unless of course its for value. that's why i say JJ and 78s. JJ for value, 78s, because its very borderline profitable to call with at 100b stacks. everthing else there you can call profitably with, although i personally don't like AJo, so i throw it away.
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Old 12-14-2007, 12:46 AM   #21
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Re: 3 betting ranges from the button

JJ 3 bet
77 call
AJ fold
KQs ? - occasionally 3 bet (altougth this is bad imo and i only do it cause it looks pretty), sometimes call, sometimes fold
J10s fold, occasionally 3 bet
87s fold, very occasionally 3 bet
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Old 12-14-2007, 01:18 AM   #22
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Re: 3 betting ranges from the button

a) JJ- flat call 70% and rasie 30%
b) 77- flat call most of the time trying to hit a set
c) AJo- i would 3-bet this alot of times, or fold
c) KQs- 3 bet 60% and flat call 40%
d) JTs- i would always flat call with this
e) 87s- most call, but i might raise if I haven't been in any pots for the last couple of orbits.
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Old 12-14-2007, 01:58 AM   #23
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Re: 3 betting ranges from the button

22/18 isn't a tag. id three bet all of the hands. With a 30% attempt to steal, and stats like that, and just the fact that you are playing online poker, he doesn't have too have a hand here. You're ahead of his range and lots of those hands are hard to play oop and get you into a stupid spots by just calling.
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Old 12-14-2007, 02:01 AM   #24
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Re: 3 betting ranges from the button

wait i just reread the op. it sounds like you are saying if he raises in the cutoff and you are on the button. in that case i would definitely 3 bet all those hands.
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Old 12-14-2007, 02:05 AM   #25
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Re: 3 betting ranges from the button

depends if i think he's a station or not ...RT hud is great for this , it tells you how many times a player calls a 3bet , if its low id most likely 3bet a ton , if its high , id probably jsut call some of these and mix it up maybe 3bet some of the weaker hands like 30 percent of the time
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