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Old 06-29-2020, 11:32 AM   #1
Im Nacho Friend
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2NLz - 4bet pot with QQ

Hi! I was kind of lost during this hand so tell me what you would have done on every street, both in a vacuum and considering the stakes + our Villian I had only 10 hands on him but: 50/40 with a 20% 3bet.

PokerStars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 9 players

UTG: $2.67 (134 bb)
UTG+1: $1.44 (72 bb)
MP (Hero): $3.48 (174 bb)
MP+1: $3.32 (166 bb)
LP: $2.24 (112 bb)
CO: $6.87 (344 bb)
BU: $2.87 (144 bb)
SB: $2.74 (137 bb)
BB: $1.91 (96 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero is MP with Q Q
2 players fold, Hero raises to $0.06, 2 players fold, CO 3-bets to $0.21, 3 players fold, Hero 4-bets to $0.56, CO calls $0.35

Flop: ($1.15) 6 T 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.38, CO calls $0.38

Turn: ($1.91) 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $0.92, Hero raises to $2.54 (all-in), CO calls $1.62
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Old 06-29-2020, 12:16 PM   #2
nonsimplesimon
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Re: 2NLz - 4bet pot with QQ

If vil only 5bgii with say AA KK AKs then I call the 3b. I mix it up for sure.

Flop fine.

Turn your hand is played face up. Maybe we get a call from JJ...
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Old 06-29-2020, 03:07 PM   #3
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Re: 2NLz - 4bet pot with QQ

What would you do OTT? I had no idea what I was doing there TBH.

Spoiler:
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Old 06-29-2020, 07:56 PM   #4
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Re: 2NLz - 4bet pot with QQ

Well once you get to the turn in a 3b pot we start playing for stacks. So if that's the goal then what are the methods that will get him to give up his stack with a weaker/wider range than yours?

Let's say you check and he bets like he did... he's doing that with AK/AJs JJ T9s hands that he continued with otf and the hands that you beat - a wide range that also includes monsters. When you raise he's folding that and continuing with a range that mostly beats you (he might call with JJ or TP but thats read dependent)... but if you call his stab he now has incentive to bluff on the river even for stacks. If an A or K falls he still might shove otr with his JJ or T9s hoping to fold out QQ... but this becomes player and read dependent as well.

There's an argument for cbetting small ott as well to keep a hand like QQ in your continuing range.

This is a classic much talked about and debated spot.
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Old 06-29-2020, 11:07 PM   #5
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Re: 2NLz - 4bet pot with QQ

Not sure that in a vacuum exists as whatever line you take is going to be influenced by the dynamics of who you're playing against, but I think what you mean by this is a TAGish/competent player so I'll provide an answer for both.

I think the play up until the turn is fine (though a bigger size on the flop would probably be preferable here). On the turn I'd like to bet 1/3 - 1/2 pot and I'm responding differently to different player types here based on the action.

I'm calling a raise OTT from this particular villain because they have a rather large range here that you beat and are prone to just jamming over the top with lots of overboard and/or flush draw combos. I don't think they are as likely to have AA/KK here because these types tend to just quickly jam PF. Against a more TAGish/competent player I would probably make a tight fold. Their range will be heavily weighted towards hand that have you in trouble and probably aren't bluffing this spot very often given that you 4-bet PF and you're range is super strong.

If both player types call, Against this villain I'm checking any A/K/spade and shoving anything else and against the TAG I'm checking all boards. Against both villains I'm probably folding to bets on these boards I check. The villain here is absolutely never bluffing, but I'm really not sure a TAGish player is going to load up a bluff here often enough to make it profitable. They know at this point you're range is basically QQ+ and are getting ONLY QQ to fold to a shove (which they will assume is going to be hard for many people to do). It's going to be more likely that they have AKs and actually hit the flush at the end.
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Old 06-29-2020, 11:18 PM   #6
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Re: 2NLz - 4bet pot with QQ

I'd say at 2nlz it is a pretty sizable mistake not to be betting the turn here. It's very important when playing against weaker players which arguably every 2nlz player is that when you have a strong hand you want money going into the pot. Players call considerably wider and tend to be considerably too passive post-flop.

I would bet the flop bigger and then shove the turn on any none A K J T.
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Old 06-30-2020, 04:00 AM   #7
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Re: 2NLz - 4bet pot with QQ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tones1010 View Post
Not sure that in a vacuum exists as whatever line you take is going to be influenced by the dynamics of who you're playing against, but I think what you mean by this is a TAGish/competent player so I'll provide an answer for both.

I think the play up until the turn is fine (though a bigger size on the flop would probably be preferable here). On the turn I'd like to bet 1/3 - 1/2 pot and I'm responding differently to different player types here based on the action.

I'm calling a raise OTT from this particular villain because they have a rather large range here that you beat and are prone to just jamming over the top with lots of overboard and/or flush draw combos. I don't think they are as likely to have AA/KK here because these types tend to just quickly jam PF. Against a more TAGish/competent player I would probably make a tight fold. Their range will be heavily weighted towards hand that have you in trouble and probably aren't bluffing this spot very often given that you 4-bet PF and you're range is super strong.

If both player types call, Against this villain I'm checking any A/K/spade and shoving anything else and against the TAG I'm checking all boards. Against both villains I'm probably folding to bets on these boards I check. The villain here is absolutely never bluffing, but I'm really not sure a TAGish player is going to load up a bluff here often enough to make it profitable. They know at this point you're range is basically QQ+ and are getting ONLY QQ to fold to a shove (which they will assume is going to be hard for many people to do). It's going to be more likely that they have AKs and actually hit the flush at the end.
Thanks for your comment! I'm very inexperienced with 4b pots as I enjoy SnG's more and these tend to contain more shortstack play. I play cash-games to work a bit more on deep-stack play + I learn something new.
I also found that I used to overbluff at these stakes, so recently I started applying a new habbit: I ask myself: "Is this where the money is?" -- Which makes me think twice before trying to bluff a fish for example.

Now as I lack the experience in these 4b pots do you suggest just overfolding QQ (and maybe even KK) at these stakes vs competent players since it is never a bluff?

In other words, should I just fold hands like the one below because it's not where our profit comes from?

PokerStars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 9 players
Replay this hand on Upswing Poker

UTG: $1.70 (85 bb)
UTG+1: $2.09 (105 bb)
MP: $5.16 (258 bb)
MP+1: $3.35 (168 bb)
LP: $3.22 (161 bb)
CO: $2.00 (100 bb)
BU: $3.16 (158 bb)
SB (Hero): $2.00 (100 bb)
BB: $3.67 (184 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero is SB with Q Q
2 players fold, MP raises to $0.06, 1 fold, LP calls $0.06, 2 players fold, Hero 3-bets to $0.30, 1 fold, MP 4-bets to $0.54, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.24

Flop: ($1.16) 2 3 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $0.60, Hero calls $0.60

Turn: ($2.36) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $1.14, Hero calls $0.86 (all-in)

River: ($4.08) 9 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $4.08 (Rake: $0.14)

Showdown:
MP shows A A (two pair, Aces and Nines)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 82%, Flop: 92%, Turn: 95%, River: 100%)

SB (Hero) shows Q Q (two pair, Queens and Nines)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 18%, Flop: 8%, Turn: 5%, River: 0%)

MP wins $3.94
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Old 06-30-2020, 04:03 AM   #8
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Re: 2NLz - 4bet pot with QQ

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMSS View Post
I'd say at 2nlz it is a pretty sizable mistake not to be betting the turn here. It's very important when playing against weaker players which arguably every 2nlz player is that when you have a strong hand you want money going into the pot. Players call considerably wider and tend to be considerably too passive post-flop.

I would bet the flop bigger and then shove the turn on any none A K J T.
I guess 60% OTF sets up a nice turn shove? Also what do you do when you do see a A, K, J or T OTT?
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Old 06-30-2020, 05:18 AM   #9
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Re: 2NLz - 4bet pot with QQ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Im Nacho Friend View Post
I guess 60% OTF sets up a nice turn shove? Also what do you do when you do see a A, K, J or T OTT?
At 2nlz you will find it's mostly fine to just check and people play their hands very straight up but also too passively. If for example the turn is an A it checks and then villain bets small on a blank river you're going to be fine calling if he bets bigger on the river we can be quite happy folding.

Although in that scenario we probably want to bet a blank river card ourselves.
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Old 06-30-2020, 12:07 PM   #10
Im Nacho Friend
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Re: 2NLz - 4bet pot with QQ

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Originally Posted by MMSS View Post
At 2nlz you will find it's mostly fine to just check and people play their hands very straight up but also too passively. If for example the turn is an A it checks and then villain bets small on a blank river you're going to be fine calling if he bets bigger on the river we can be quite happy folding.

Although in that scenario we probably want to bet a blank river card ourselves.
I didn't think villian played this hand very straight up though? Or would you say that he did?
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Old 07-01-2020, 12:15 AM   #11
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Re: 2NLz - 4bet pot with QQ

To your second example I'm probably calling because you're priced in to get a stack if you spike a Q, but generally at 2NL (and really at most stakes because this is a weird line) the min 4-bet is someone with AA/KK (and occasionally AK) who doesn't know what to do like 90% of the time.
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