Zone on Ignition, no reads and all that fun stuff:

6-handed
Important stacks:
UTG: covers everyone
ME (MP): $66
SB: $49

Hero has KK

UTG limps for $.25, Hero raises to $1.10, 2 folds, Small Blind raises to $3.90, Big Blind folds, UTG calls, Hero calls

Flop: 287 (Pot: $11.95)
Small Blind checks, UTG bets $11.95, Hero calls, SB folds

Turn: 7 (Pot: $35.85)
UTG puts me all-in for $50.15

UTG instantly called the 3-bet, instantly potted flop, and instantly shipped turn. What is happening here? Do we slowroll or not?

Reraise pre. The only hand that UDG is repping on flop that beats you is 88 or 77. As played, that is extremely unlikely. Most players wouldn't play such a strong range so fast. Especially when they hit quads or boat on turn. You are nit rolling turn. Call all day.

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Makes no sense to bet flop pot and shove turn....i wanna know what he had lol. id call but then quit the session if i get shown 88s or something. i'd be so tilted.

i wouldn't 4 bet pre, you're deep.

Start singing Heroes by Bowie and call.

Effective stack has a little less than 200bb. Can perceive that you're isolating. With kk you want a smaller SPR on flop so reraising pre accomplishes this.

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I call this and be happy with his call. utg is a fish, turn is a good card, we beat a lot

lol I'd fold read less since we'e so deep.

Limpcalling a 4bet smells funny from utg. Then v is playing superfast and that's probably because v is putting you on an over pair, specially after you called the psb otf. Would expect to see AA quite often since that's the 'tricky fishy' kinda of way of playing the hand.

I strongly disagree with the argument that we shouldn't 4bet here. Both UTG and SB can have Ax hands like AK,AQ, AJ, A5s. We beat these but they still have 30% equity one on one. 4bet to 15$+ and we're happy to get the fold equity, what's more UTG looks to be a fish we can get plenty of value from.

I hate playing deep so much, especially with no reads.
To the people saying to 4bet pre here (say we make it to 9 or so) what's the plan if SB makes it 22? 6 bet shove 200bb deep?
Or call and see a flop, then what? (if A on board, if no A on board)

I probably 4bet it as well for the records, but if we get 5bet it really sucks with no reads.

As played... Damn. I would like it better if SB was the one doing this, tho his range would be mostly high pocket pairs. Unless he only does it with KK+, we're at least breaking even (aside from the sets, which are a really small part of his range - not only in combos, but unlikely to 3bet them that deep).

The UTG pot and shove is scary.


Most players wouldn't open limp from UTG and cold call a 3bet tho... Don't think it's right to put the boats/quads out of UTG's range because "this is not the right way to play them"; UTG doesn't seems like he knows how to play in the first place.

Fish don't always make good plays.
And as a general note, when a limp/calling fish (so, weak passive/calling station'ish) bet full pot on the flop and insta shove the turn 200bb deep, it raises all kinds of alarms to me.

When passive players are suddenly not passive at all, you have to wonder why.

Does he have a boat/quads? Does he have T's or A-8 and think this is the nuts on this board? Sadly without reads you're just guessing which one its more likely to be... But I don't think we can dismiss nut hands because it wouldn't make sense to play them like this; Maybe his plays don't make sense. I go with what we got here. Limp/calling a 3bet from UTG when you're not even closing the action (dropping 16bb of dead money if hero 4bets), he probably doesn't know how to play.

And I rarely see passive fish go crazy like that (pot, shove) with small top pair kind of hands. They're content to call 3 barrels with them, but when they pot flop shove turn it's scary even 100bb deep, because they almost never bet aggressively like that. Now it's 200bb.


Against a range of 22, 77, 88, 87s, a8s, a8o, we're 55-45. But I'm not even sure a8 is strong enough for a limp/calling player to instantly pot on the flop, and instantly shove turn.

If we add overpairs to his hands (say 9's and 10's - think even a fish can find a raise button with JJ+ at some point) then it becomes a clear call.
I'm not sure if I could pull it in game as played tho.


OP, when discussion is over please post results. I'm curious. To see if he did play a monster like an idiot, or just way overplayed a (relatively) weak holding.

well I am not folding as played, & am 4-betting pre also

cute

You know what. I might fold this.

villain limp SNAP calls a decent sized raise AND a 3bet.

4bet preflop. I want this pot HU and I can't see both villains calling preflop. If we get shoved on then I hate life and flip a coin.

as played I'm flipping a coin here too, heads I call tails I fold.

IME this is a set or AA and very little else. People that have big stacks are either decent players OR they are gamblors that have been running hot, and this guy looks like the latter.

You need to be a special kind of crazy to snap overbet shove 200BB on a bluff vs a player who looks like he's going to call.

If this is late in the session I am more inclined to want to call down. If I am going to keep playing a while after this hand then I lean towards folding as I can leverage my 200BB stack better in later hands than I can a 100BB one.

UTG can have AK (we block that) QQ-TT and all of those hands aren't likely to snap bet this turn, they'd at least pause a little while first you'd think.

We lose to AA sets quads and 78s and beat TT-QQ and bluffs. We beat 20ish combos, we lose to 14.

Pokerstove says this is 57% equity vs TT+ 77 22 88 AKs 87s so we should call. (IF he's ever bluffing) If he isn't bluffing and doesn't jam TT then we have 46%.

It's a lot of blinds and I think it's close, so I flip a coin.

This would mean we should call. Dont know why you want to flip a coin.

135/50 = 37%

Even though we're deep, I think I still would prefer to 4-bet with the fish on our immediate right. If he's going to limp then take two to the face and flat, then I'm optimistic that he's not going to fold to our 4-bet.

I'm calling turn as played. I would call 88-77, AA-KK here. QQ is a lot closer but probably a fold for me, and I think JJ-99 are clear folds.

...

imo

I'd like to hear some reasoning for 4-betting pre. I think flatting is best because it's 1) deceptive, 2) 4-betting feels like overplaying this deep and 3) I think we have to fold to a 5-bet because people are nits preflop 100bbs deep, let alone 200bbs deep.

For those who don't know, on Ignition you can see what your opponents folded if you check > 24 hours after the hand happened. Here's what the sb folded:

Thoughts on his fold after checking? Checking probably isn't the best play but lol once he does check.

Agree. I would be a fan of flatting had utg folded.

I'm not entirely against this, but I'll give a quick counter just for sake of discussion. You can wait all night for these kind of big money spots, and we can't always wait and hope to cooler people when we have the hand locked down. The main point though, roughly paraphrasing some old Baluga Whale vid I remember, you should think of a fish like this as being a time bomb. They have a fuse running down and at some point they're going to blow up and and send their chips to someone. You want to be the guy to stack them before they ship all the chips to some other reg, because if it goes to that 20/18 rock sat behind you who flopped a set first then you miss out on your share.

It's pretty awful.

You just answered your own question. The more bets go in preflop the narrower the ranges get, and someone with ~280BB isn't 5bet bluffing often enough.

That and the fact that we're still 3 handed preflop and I want this HU.

Pretty bad. I can see folding the turn with KK given the line and the timing tells from UTG, folding the flop isn't good though.

I thought he had AK the way he played it.

True. I don't need the hand locked down. I'd call this all day with AA here, but equally just because we could win a huge pot it doesn't make it right.

The equity I quoted earlier is for JJ+ and that's probably optimistic I'm not even sure that villain would play QQ like this (timing tells) and vs a range of sets better OPs and maybe a bluff we're not so good.

The fact it's an anon table sways me towards call(bigger bluff range), the fact that he snap jammed the turn and never raised pre makes me think he has at least a boat most of the time and we should fold.

I think spots like these are really close and I am not sure what to do if I'm honest. Which is why I break out my coin.

Villain had the JJ

You called, yes?

.

9 otr

Guess I have to rethink my estimated range for UTG limp/calling fish

Imo

Well you should be more specific on point number 3.What do you think how they play vs 4b?Because if they flat AK KK QQ JJ or what ever and then 5b AA that is argument 4 4bing,not against.

I think we can make some kind of small 4b pre that way we put small blind in tough spot and we crate smaller SPR which is good if fish stay in pot.

Reraise