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Old 10-11-2018, 07:37 AM   #1
TheGodson
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Diamond 100NL two pair too thin?

100BBs effective

I open $3 on the button with 8 5
SB makes it $10
BB folds
I call

Flop($19.84) 5 4 K
BB checks
I bet $9.92
BB calls

Turn($38.84) 5 4 K 8
BB checks
I bet $25
BB calls

River($88.84) 5 4 K 8 T
BB checks
I jam making it $56.19 more for him to call

Too thin or good?
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Old 10-11-2018, 07:57 AM   #2
ionutd
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Re: 100NL two pair too thin?

calling pre too loose, worst suited 2gapper I might defend is T7s
c/ flop, what's your plan? 3 barrel and sometimes get him to fold JJ?
ap, turn and river look good to me
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Old 10-11-2018, 08:01 AM   #3
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Re: 100NL two pair too thin?

pre is too loose indeed

flop bet is fine, think were supposed to mix this combos

turn and river are both fine


nh
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Old 10-11-2018, 08:31 AM   #4
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Re: 100NL two pair too thin?

Fold to the 3-bet. Post-flop looks pretty standard. You could check back flop, but I think betting is fine too.
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Old 10-11-2018, 08:36 AM   #5
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Re: 100NL two pair too thin?

how do you guys see this hand play out after v c/c flop?
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Old 10-11-2018, 08:38 AM   #6
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Re: 100NL two pair too thin?

If villain calls on the flop and we don't improve, I'm usually shutting down and realizing my equity/SDV cheaply.
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Old 10-11-2018, 08:44 AM   #7
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Re: 100NL two pair too thin?

So what does he call us with otr that does not bet flop?
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Old 10-11-2018, 08:46 AM   #8
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Re: 100NL two pair too thin?

Quote:
how do you guys see this hand play out after v c/c flop?
barrelling on any turns that improves our equity

I dont see V taking the xc xr line too often so i dont see a problem in betting turn when we improve (any diamond, any 6, any 7, 5 and 8)
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Old 10-11-2018, 08:47 AM   #9
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Re: 100NL two pair too thin?

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Originally Posted by NikTheGreek View Post
So what does he call us with otr that does not bet flop?
QQ/JJ, Kx, trappy Aces
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Old 10-11-2018, 08:50 AM   #10
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Re: 100NL two pair too thin?

ok, but I think ppl cb pretty much all their air on a board like this, so his checking range is all sdv and possibly few slowplays. 85 doesn't even edge most of his sdv. we beat A4s and 65s, mby 75s and 64s if he has those.
in my mind, we bet the flop, then shutdown, have to fold to a river bet unimproved and when it gets c/ all the way we pretty much always lose to a better pair. we can bluff an A on turn or river but that's about it...

edit: oh we got bd diamonds too
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Old 10-11-2018, 11:36 AM   #11
Get_With_It
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Re: 100NL two pair too thin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
If villain calls on the flop and we don't improve, I'm usually shutting down and realizing my equity/SDV cheaply.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ionutd View Post
ok, but I think ppl cb pretty much all their air on a board like this, so his checking range is all sdv and possibly few slowplays. 85 doesn't even edge most of his sdv. we beat A4s and 65s, mby 75s and 64s if he has those.
in my mind, we bet the flop, then shutdown, have to fold to a river bet unimproved and when it gets c/ all the way we pretty much always lose to a better pair. we can bluff an A on turn or river but that's about it...

edit: oh we got bd diamonds too
I'm having a bit of trouble understanding the logic behind betting the flop. It may still be the best move in this spot (and I'd like to be convinced) but what I read here isn't making much sense to me.

We would expect almost every hand that missed for villain to bluff this type of flop texture. Meaning that most of his checks here will be check calls.

So if we're betting the flop to shut down on the turn, what's the point of betting the flop? To put more money in the pot when we're behind? To bluff later?
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Old 10-11-2018, 11:37 AM   #12
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Re: 100NL two pair too thin?

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Originally Posted by ionutd View Post
ok, but I think ppl cb pretty much all their air on a board like this, so his checking range is all sdv and possibly few slowplays
Thats why I asked the question. Dont know if they call all their combos of QQ, JJ and Kx on the river so not sure we beat over 50% of his calling range. It seems too thin otr for me.
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Old 10-11-2018, 11:45 AM   #13
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Re: 100NL two pair too thin?

so because V never xfs flop we should never bet flop unless we have it?

this hand can turn equity on a lot of turns and thus punish his weak flop range
Lets not forget that we improve sometimes (8,5,running diamonds) and can then stack the 'slowplayed' part of his range?
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Old 10-11-2018, 11:48 AM   #14
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Re: 100NL two pair too thin?

Hard to say what we should theoretically do since no solver will have mixed flop strat that involves checking...

someone would have to nodelock it

Last edited by ChipsNcrisps; 10-11-2018 at 12:15 PM.
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Old 10-11-2018, 01:16 PM   #15
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Re: 100NL two pair too thin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Get_With_It View Post
So if we're betting the flop to shut down on the turn, what's the point of betting the flop? To put more money in the pot when we're behind? To bluff later?
Villain sometimes (or even often) folds on the flop, but when he calls we get to realize our equity in full (unless he donks the turn), because we always see the river if we check back turn, which gives us a chance to make 2pr or trips (or better). That is to say, for the price of one bet, we often get to see all five cards.
If you check back the flop, you probably have to fold on a lot of turn cards if/when villain makes a delayed c-bet, so you don't get the chance to realize your equity. e.g. Imagine the flop checks through and the turn is any Broadway card. You can't float with 3rd pair, no draw now, as villain is somewhat likely to also bet the river.

I'd guess the "solution" utilizes a mixed strat of betting and checking the flop in this spot, but I'm just guessing. I usually take a stab with any kind of equity when a villain fails to c-bet in a 3-bet pot.
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Old 10-11-2018, 02:34 PM   #16
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Re: 100NL two pair too thin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
Villain sometimes (or even often) folds on the flop, but when he calls we get to realize our equity in full (unless he donks the turn), because we always see the river if we check back turn, which gives us a chance to make 2pr or trips (or better). That is to say, for the price of one bet, we often get to see all five cards.
If you check back the flop, you probably have to fold on a lot of turn cards if/when villain makes a delayed c-bet, so you don't get the chance to realize your equity. e.g. Imagine the flop checks through and the turn is any Broadway card. You can't float with 3rd pair, no draw now, as villain is somewhat likely to also bet the river.

I'd guess the "solution" utilizes a mixed strat of betting and checking the flop in this spot, but I'm just guessing. I usually take a stab with any kind of equity when a villain fails to c-bet in a 3-bet pot.
Thanks Arty. Great comment as always.

I just don't think we should be fighting for this pot, in this spot with this holding (that shouldn't be on the flop to begin with). I also see many runouts that let us see all 5 cards without putting any bets in anyways (though seeing 4 should be a win here. Remember we can get check/raised. This isn't always a check/call).

There is a lot more air that I'd like to bet (with backdoor outs as well). I'd be shocked if a solution has us betting 85s more than checking on this flop.

+1 for anyone willing to PIO or Snowie it.
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Old 10-11-2018, 09:16 PM   #17
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Re: 100NL two pair too thin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChipsNcrisps View Post
so because V never xfs flop we should never bet flop unless we have it?
The opposite. Since he has a weak range we should triple barrel bluff. I just dont think he calls enough with worse otr to justify a bet when we do have a marginal hand.
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Old 10-12-2018, 02:53 AM   #18
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Re: 100NL two pair too thin?

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Originally Posted by NikTheGreek View Post
The opposite. Since he has a weak range we should triple barrel bluff. I just dont think he calls enough with worse otr to justify a bet when we do have a marginal hand.
Exactly, whats wrong with doing it with a hand that can turn a fk ton of equity and is very often beat otf?
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Old 10-12-2018, 09:00 AM   #19
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Re: 100NL two pair too thin?

Yeah, I'm a fan of betting and checking this hand on flop as a mixed strategy. At the time, I was hoping to get folds and maybe turn some of his strong Ax hands into a 1 street bluff catcher instead of getting barreled off the hand on the river.

It turns out that he did in fact have AK, which is mostly what I was hoping for. KK, 55, 44 and backdoor spades were definitely something to fear.
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Old 10-12-2018, 04:59 PM   #20
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Re: 100NL two pair too thin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChipsNcrisps View Post
Exactly, whats wrong with doing it with a hand that can turn a fk ton of equity and is very often beat otf?
I am fine with betting flop and turn.. I think the river is too thin.
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Old 10-12-2018, 05:00 PM   #21
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Re: 100NL two pair too thin?

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Originally Posted by TheGodson View Post
It turns out that he did in fact have AK, which is mostly what I was hoping for. KK, 55, 44 and backdoor spades were definitely something to fear.
I think that was your best case scenario
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