im about to go get breakfast in jeans and an oversized hoodie. IN PUBLIC. i can do that and say at the same time that henry17 is right and not be a hypocrite.

Karak,

Absolute stances are important because of slippery slopes and also because people need experience before they can use discretion. I'm actually ok with jeans now under the right circumstances and done correctly. T-shirts for an average guy though are never acceptable.

Goofy,

The implication of this is that you are saying it is ok to slack off once you have an established relationship. That mentality is how married people / LTR people become unattractive.

With respect to something being natural or not that is actually something I was thinking about last night. All the things that come naturally to me also happen to be idealized ways of acting to get social status and thus laid. Now was I just lucky and this is a coincidence or did I end up with these things being natural because I can about outcomes and I adapted. I'm certain it is the latter. I think the reason younger generations have so many problems (not only with girls but life in general) is that this BS of just be yourself even if who you naturally are is not valued by society has damaged kids.

Henry, not that you're wrong, but when you talk about the "younger generation" you sound like an old man whose only interaction with that generation is when you're yelling at them to get off your lawn. And I'm pretty sure that your complaints about the young generation can be broadened to all people once you account for the fact that younger people are more likely to have such qualities (but won't be young forever).

AKSpartan,

It has nothing to do with being young and they don't grow out of it. Look at OOT and the Lounge where you have guys my age who still think this way. It has to do with what people experience growing up. My generation already had a lot of this feel good bull**** that what matters is being yourself even if who you are is not all that great. The difference is that we didn't have the internet so your choice was being lonely or in person socialization and in person socialization would fix a lot of the problems that the just be yourself ideology created. Now though people have the internet so they don't socialize in person even close to as much and the result is that a large percentage of guys in their 20s have no social skills. This creates a big gap between guys who get it and guys who don't and learning those social skills at 20+ is a lot harder than doing it when you are 14-16.

Re whole Facebook discussion:

If you live in NYC or Ottawa or w/e for decades, it is not obvious to you what the benefits are.

I moved a lot in the recent 3 years and met people from a ton of places. If I want to stay in contact with them, I am not going to write a letter or start remembering their email address.

Facebook reminds me of certain events and birthdays are actually a great way to reconnect and see what everyone is up to. Do it twice a year and in addition see how they progress (via their profile pictures, info, etc.). Especially career-wise, I can keep track of what they are doing and it will probably later on help me either find a job or know if someone else needs a job I could provide them.

But it's also a lot easier to stay in touch with your family and a bit more distant relatives.

Not having a Facebook account is definitely weird and I dont know anyone, who is social and doesnt have a FB account.

Obviously, if you are ******ed and cant use privacy settings, you are screwed. But I hide my friends, wall and most of my info (I actually can be found in search and keep some info up for strangers, because I think it will show me in a better light - especially in regards to prospective employers).

There is a major difference between Americans and Europeans with that regard. Most Euros know how to use the privacy settings, if I went through every American friend's friends and looked at their photos, I wouldnt have enough time in my life to see them all.

Henry, you have a point but 2+2 isn't exactly the best cross section of people to look at to represent the population.

Most girls I've ever dated rarely cared about what I wore, but I always made sure to look "correct" for whatever function it was. Being a musician I hang out with q lot of hipster artsy types (and a lot of cool genuine people as well) who make it a point to go against societal norms at times. What say you of a dude interested in girls from this circle?

Spurious,

What is the value in keeping in touch with people you never see?

I have FB and I have people who I've moved away from or who have moved away as FB friends. To use an example Mark -- he was in the top three closest friends while in law school and probably my closest friend during articling year. I would see him minimum twice a week and we went to Europe for two months together. Next thing you know he gets a new job and leaves Toronto. Our total interaction is now limited to writing happy birthday on each others walls when FB tells us it is the other person's birthday. He got married and has kids. I can't tell you their names, ages, or even gender. If I find myself in his city I'll call him up to go for a drink and if he comes to Ottawa or Toronto I'd expect the same but I just have zero interest in talking about the minutia of my life with him or hearing about his. Once someone moves out of the sphere of people you interact with they get replaced by other people. If I was going to keep in touch with everyone who was a close friend once but who I don't see now I'd need two personal assistants just to manage that.

+1

If you dont see the value in keeping in touch with them, then we are different.
Also, I cant keep track of the different phone numbers everyone has, especially if you move within Europe and you have to get a different number. So having Facebook is the only way to keep track of their contacts.

There might be an age difference, but I very well see a point in keeping contact with former close friends. And they usually dont get married and get completely disconnected from their former lifestyle, as they do in your case.

For example, I recently flew to London for a job interview, I got a few friends there, but not their phone number. I checked beforehand if they are in town and if they were free to meet up. When I fly in at noon and want to meet them for drinks the same night, it is less likely to happen if I call them after I land.

There is also the notion, that you replace people in your social circle. This is only the case, if you, yourself, stay in the same spot for the entire time. I tend to move around and move from city to city. So having contacts there is a major advantage.

Facebook is > email or phone for this, especially if this isnt a rare occasion and you have lots of friends in different places who might be in your city or you might be visiting them.

Also if you travel a lot, facebook is awesome. I love that I can go to half the countries in Europe and have someone to meet up for a drink with. I like facebook because it is informal. You can just drop a message saying im going to be in your city on x date, if you are free lets meet up. I would never call these people who I dont know that well, but facebook is fine. It's also great for screening people in this situation.

Every scene has a hierarchy by which people are evaluated. The only thing a guy needs to be successful with women is the ability to quickly identify the metrics a particular social scene values and then excel at those. I have zero interest in that scene so I can't tell you what they value but there are metrics.

Goofy is actually wrong when he says that my advice is that everyone should be little Henry17 clones. My advice has always been to evaluate what your social scene values and excel at that. I'm certain I have made this argument at least a couple of times in the SL topic and certainly dozens of times in the EDF topic.

My concern with guys trying to excel at scenes other than the one I promote is based on utility. There are just more attractive girls in the demographic I prefer than in any other demographic. There is also a lot of crossover appeal to other demographics that you might not get from smaller more specific scenes. For example, I had a friend from Calgary whose BF dumped her because he was getting a ****load of girls after he joined the musical ride -- I had no idea what that was but it is basically dressage for men. Now in his scene I would be at a major disadvantage to him but I would still have a shot because the metrics I choose to develop are cross-scenes and I'd say are almost universal. Reverse the roles and he has no shot in most scenes that don't think being able to do dressage is cool. My fear with guys becoming dominant in a sub-scene that is smaller is that they end up developing skills that are useful for too small a population of girls.

Really great post. I feel I am a little better at going cross demographic than most in my scene and have results to show for it. I have a large family of many different types of personalities and therefore am familiar with norms in dif types of social circles. I thank my cousins for that.

love seeing Cali vs. DC argument itt.

Obv it doesn't mean jack **** if you go out in a hoodie/jeans most days. That's what I see most STUDENTS wearing.

Basically, as long as you don't look like a slob roughly >30% of the time, you're fine.

I'll rarely go "out" in a t shirt, but a casual house party where I already know everyone? Shirt is fine imo

I agree you dont want to limit yourself to one subgroup of society, which is why going all out hipster (for example) is probably -EV. If you are in a hipster crowd, adjust your wardrobe/behaviour accordingly, but dont go all the way.

I feel like disko is a good example (I could be way off). He seems to be an NYC hipster, yet still on the whole dresses upscale, flashes dolla dolla bills yo, and generally follows the 'Henry strategy', just adjusts it accordingly. I feel like a well dressed 'semi hipster' isnt going to do any worse than a full on 'look how douchy I can be hipster' in the hipster scene, so why limit yourself by going option 2?

The same applies to college too imo.

Yes and no one disagrees with this but we are talking about being fine. School is a perfect example of this -- we all cut corners and yet we are fine. That doesn't mean that the outcome we arrived at isn't sub-optimal to the outcome we would have attained if we had never cut corners.

For average looking guys competition for attractive girls is so tight that I don't think you have the freedom to give away any advantage and if you do then you lose the right to bitch about how hard it is.

I agree with your stance, except for the "competition for attractive girls is tight" part. I do understand that with a college environment allows for LOTS of choices for both guys and girls, but I don't think it's a cutthroat competition at all.

I think it is a feast or famine situation. I only know guys who are 20+ a year or 0-2 a year. I also find the definition of attractive is a moving goal post situation. Since being on 2P2 I have started to think most guys struggle.

I mean, if you frequently read OOT, you think every guy hates women. Most discussions are so tilting and the biggest problem is, the majority thinks this way so they think their opinion is valid, when it would never stand in the "real world".

2p2 is definitely on the introverted side of the scale wrt most social situations. There are obv exceptions (hi) but for the most part, 2p2 is fairly introverted

That was basically what I was trying to get at. I'm glad we agree at the baseline of the issue! I have an interesting day today in regard to that. I have to meet with city council in like 30 minutes, hire 2 employees later, and then go to a beer pong league at night. Pretty sure I'll be changing twice today.... son of a....

yes because ive really dumped a girl like that. nice sense of humour anyway.

Except there is no social scene that values guys dressing in T-shirts unless you are a French mega-DJ.

I'm about 8 a year not counting the occasional f buddy but I kind of agree that despite it not being so cutthroat as some might say most ppl I know are in "get nothig or get it regularly" categories.