Funny thing is, people who got low self esteem will try to make up for it with lies and pretend often and their main point of attraction will be girls. Like kind of a mission.
As opposed to guys with high self esteem, who won't seek girls, even when single, cuz they're just too busy with stuff they like to actually borther playin' these games.


Anyway, thought again 'bout what I said, and while it ain't wrong in any way, I just think that such approach might not suit you. I realize my advice is based on who I am, what I know and been through till now,.. I may talk ages, but people won't understand if they haven't experienced all the stuff I did themselves.

So you're better off with advices other people in this thread gives you. Play the game, enjoy it, struggle with it... it makes things more complicated than they really are, it's stupid at the same time, but unless you experience it yourself, I understand you find it hard to know what I'm talking 'bout. ;o

This shows a great misunderstanding of what nio and I are trying to express. I do not like PUA, for the record, although I do think elements of it are useful to a certain demographic.

Thanks.

FWIW I used to think all this. Then I realized I actually agreed with everyone else and was just bad at articulating it.

Yea, I know. I realized that the means you use, be it pua, elements of it or completely going the other way is mainly determined by the goal you're trying to achieve.
I was giving out an advice which I apply to get what I want and how I like it. At the same time I overlooked the fact, that what I desire might not match G&B's desires. Which is the cause of our misunderstanding.

The thing I'd like to point out tho', is that these games, plays and whatever moves one can pull on a girl ain't fundamentaly that 'ok'. For one's creating an illusion of something that doesn't exists. And then think, how would you feel should you find out that *most of what/all* you believed was a lie? Not good uh. Especially, if the other person promises to never lie to you. ;o

That's why I prefer straightforward and honest in relationships, no games, no bluffs. When I raise I got it. Which I think, unlike in poker, is the best way. Needless to say, only few people think this deep and truly appreciate it.
But finding one is sweetest reward of your efforts.

you can have game and still be straightforward and honest; To me, that seems the best thing but it seems many people do not realize it.

Yeah you clearly have absolutely no idea what any of us are recommending. I suggest you thoroughly read through the thread again. I have never, and will never, recommend deceiving or lying to a girl in order to gain her affection. Period. These are the usual garbage inferences self-described "nice guys" draw when they are frustrated that they don't succeed with women.

Exactly. It's not about what you say or who you are. It's about your own personal frame of mind and level of self-confidence. A lack of self-confidence is something everyone should seek to cure, as it is useful not only in dating, but in many other facets of life as well.

hey guys !

well first of all, i'm french, my english wont be perfect .
so here's a summary of me with girls :

the girl is too hot or w/e and i'm like no way i try with this one.
the girl is more "standard", but as i'm rly shy, i find an excuse, i'm not motivated and i do nothing
i don't manage to "force" myself act, and that rly rly rly tilt me ..

i'm 20 yrs old, never been laid ; as i said, i'm shy, but if a random girl talk to me or smthing, if i don't find her hot or w/E, i can speak etc . i'm not desperate.

the bad (?) thing is I look way younger than my age, like maybe a 16-17 yrs old i guess, depend on people.

I hate to fail in life too so that does not encourage me to act with girls

but yeah ofc, i know that if i dont do anything, it wont come by itself, need volume as in poker to have good results etc .... but **** me, i always find something to dont act and that pissed me of

i'm not ugly, rly not, theres just this thing with my young look.

so yeah i guess you can't do miracle but i don't know, i would appreciate a lot any tips or w/E

thx in advance, feel free to ask me other stuff

well I never read it at all in the first place... but the advice of having a game seems wrong to me, so I opposed that.


Our frame of mind and level of self-confidence shape who we are and what we say (not other way around, just for the record). So they're really the same thing, as your confidence shows in the actions you take and words you speak.
Well I always advice people to raise their level of confidence, it's not that easy as going to gym and working out tho', cuz it's some complicated psychological ****. But I agree it's important for your life.

Still I see *playing a game* (as per pua term) as something very different to being self-confident. One can support the other, but it's 2 different things.
In other words, you can be self-confident and it may help you elevate your game. But playing a game, won't improve level of your self-confidence.

-ChoKo- > generally,... you stop looking up to girls. Girls should be looking up to you.

that's easier said than done.. and it'd take thousands of pages to provide you with a detailed plan on how to do this. So I will go no further than that. You figure out yourself how to achieve it.

haha going to the gym and started watching my physical attitude was exactly what I did. it worked wonders as i felt an improvement in life quality and self confidence right away and just tried to keep that flow going since then.

most important of all though, was actually speaking to friends about stuff like this. trust me, if you find the right type of people, that can get you anywhere in life in such short time. tell each other about your progressions, and what can/should have been done. skyrocketing selfconfidence in no time => girls

It was a comparison of going to gym vs getting self confidence up.
You eat properly, do the workouts, follow the plan. And you build up your body. Now it just ain't that simple with confidence. It's completely different fight, much more complicated.

And yes, actual working out is a factor that might help you improve your self-confidence. I ain't denying that. You be getting better and stronger, you feel better, it's nice.

But to improve your confidence, you must find a way to fight and get rid of your fears, most prolly change your mind set, be a bit arrogant, self-centred. At the start, you might want to get defensive, because the a lot of people around you might be just too big influence. So kinda isolating yourself and working on yourself would do.

And if you got friends who will speak about this openly, I mean, friends who understand what you're saying and can interact providing satisfying answers to your questions, then it's great. But a lot more people will think you're nuts if you open up and speak about it.

Several years ago, I was shy like hell, afraid to ask strangers,.. when sent somewhere, I didn't want to go alone cuz I needed psychological 'back-up'... There happened a lot in that time frame between then and now... today, I'm someone else, if I said 'I got it all figured out and if I die, the universe might just as well crumble because of that' would pretty much sum it up. I still fear snakes tho'.. but as for my inner fears, I wiped most of them out. I can speak of anything, all my secrets, problems, things people would feel ashamed of...and I don't trouble my mind with 'what will they say'.. hell I don't care.

Original post? Usually when girls text you this **** it's a good sign though.

Il_martilo, the back story to my situation is on page 32 of this thread.

Karak, I am looking for your opinion here. I respect your advice and want to know what you think.

for the future, say what post # that is. people have different page lengths.

however, given you only have 10 posts, martilo can easily search your post history and find it

Gimme a few and I'll take a look. Have to finish some things up IRL first.

And yeah, and this goes for everyone, I think it would be helpful to either cliffnote and/or link (click on the little # in the upper right hand corner) to your previous posts in the future to help refresh our memories. I can find yours, though, Gold and Blue.

I found it eventually. Usually in a situation like that I'm bailing ship and probably not initiating contact with her again. But that exchange you had with her previously makes this behavior a bit strange.

I wouldn't necessarily take this as a sign of interest though. If she has changed her mind she'll do other things to make it obvious IMO.

Hm. Odd spot. Something is definitely off with this girl. Her latest behavior, coupled with fact that you previously stated she seemed "closed" and "shady" makes me wonder.

There could be some issues or she could just be generally confused at where she is in life.

There's a few possibilities here:

1. She feels guilty. You seem like a very nice guy, so I assume you come across the same way IRL. She might feel bad about letting you down (as women often do), and she is trying to make up for it by being your friend and talking to you.

2. She developed attraction. Maybe she realized she misses talking to you and she is really attracted. The other "relationship" may have been an issue, or maybe she has psychological issues. Who knows?

3. She was always attracted to you, but for whatever reason she is afraid to show it or get into a relationship. I think this is the most probable option. She may be afraid for any number of reasons: hurt in a past relationship, psychological issues, there really is another guy and she can't decide, etc. She's trying to keep you around, but she really isn't sure what to do.

It could be any of the 3. From what I know now, she could simply not be attracted at all and just value you as a friend or she is very attracted. I can't quite decide at the moment.

You have a few plays:

1. Completely blow her off. Essentially, through your behavior, give her a big "**** off go talk to your boyfriend." She'll either fade away (likely) or come on strong to win you back (unlikely with this girl IMO).

2. Try again. You can make an overt effort to build attraction just like before and see what happens.

3. Hedge. Pick somewhere in the middle. Keep your distance from her, for now, but keep your options open. Kind of take the standard "push and pull" approach. Show her interest at some times and show her nothing at others. Pursue other women and make sure she finds out about it. Blatantly move on while still improving your status in her mind.

My thoughts on each play:

1. 2nd best play. If she really is just playing games with you, this is the clear play. **** her and using you as an emotional crutch (which she might be doing). You can't stand for that. However, if she really does have attraction then this probably won't get you a good result.

It is worth considering, though, that you may still NOT want to attract her back even if she does have attraction. If her reasoning for not committing to you is some sort of deep-seated psychological issue or the girl is just plain insane, you're gunna want to run run run anyways.

2. Hate this play. Awful (I know I came up with it, haha). It failed the first time for some reason, and it will fail again, even if you execute better.

3. Best play, assuming you can keep your own emotions under control (this is important! More on this in a second). You push and pull her, keep her distant, give the appearance of moving on (because you really ARE moving on, just keeping your options open) but continue staying in contact with her and seeing her so she sees why you are so awesome. Just be awesome always. Impress her, her friends and anyone else watching while actually searching for other chicks. You'll either find another girl that you really like, or this one will come running for you, or both (which is a good problem to have, just don't be a dick and use them.)

The danger here is if you let yourself get too emotionally invested in this girl. Not only will that lead you to fail street (you won't actually be moving on and no one will think you are), but it's gunna sting even more if she rejects you again. Keep your emotions at bay, do seriously consider other women and keep your options with her open. If through this course of play you discover she's insane or has some sort of serious problem, you can easily slip away.

I hope this all makes sense. I'm just gunna smash post without reading it over since I have work to do, but I'll have to double check my work later. Everyone feel free to be critical, unless you're just gunna be dumb and say "OMGOSH STOP BEING FAKE JUST BE YOURSELF." We've already dealt with that earlier in the thread.

Summary:

OP sorry I did not get to this earlier. You seem nice a real decent guy, and I think you deserve better than to be pushed around by a girl like this. Move on, just don't be afraid to keep your options open if she sparks your interest again.

That was pretty much a study guide on how to deal with this situation.

Well done Karak.

Thank you very much Karak. You responses are amazing and extremely helpful.

The possibilities you've laid out:
If she's still giving me all this attention b/c she feels guilty...well, that sucks. I have no idea if the "other guy" is working out or not working. Hell, I didn't even know he existed until she shot me down. The third possibility is intriguing. She has told me in the past that she is reluctant to get into a relationship at this point b/c she'll be going off to law school in the fall and would not want to deal with that and a relationship. Maybe that has changed now that she wants to go to the same law school as me. I know i'm really reaching on that last statement.

As far as the plays you've laid out:
I really believe blowing her off in that fashion would lead her to stop speaking to me, but, as you can tell, she is very unconventional. So nothing is out of the question. I am definitely taking the third approach you discussed. I've only responded to her calls and texts, but have not initiated anything.

I really don't want to get shot down again by this girl, but I'll be very tempted to try again if she keeps acting like she's interested.

I thought I was totally over her during the Thanksgiving break. However, seeing her again and getting all this attention from her again is making it tougher to move on. I'm certainly going to keep my options open with other girls, but I'd be lying if I said I still don't think about her. I'm more emotionally invested in her than I've been with any other girl in a long time.

I guess the only other thing I have is a question about finding out info. Is there any non-obsessive/non-desperate approach to take in finding out information about that "other guy." She has no facebook or the like for me to stalk. I'm afraid to come out and just ask her and be seen as pathetic or unable to take a rejection.

are you friends with any of her friends? especially any guy ones?

Just be aware of your emotions and work to control them as best as possible. Learn in the process.

Finding out info? Depends. I don't really like asking mutual 3rd parties about girls, because people generally have trouble keeping their mouth shut. Even if they don't affirmatively tell her, they might unintentionally spew. There's very few people in life I truly trust to not unintentionally spew.

Try to bring it up IN CONTEXT of a conversation with her. If you just hit her with it out of no where, it's too obvious. If it makes sense in the general course of conversation, then it's fine. Consider whether or not you would feel comfortable bringing it up with a guy friend. If it seems natural to discuss with a guy friend, then it's definitely natural to discuss with her.

I did this recently. I knew the girl was in a relationship, but was curious (not for any bad intentions really, just simply curious) how strong the relationship was. We were talking about futures and relatives and our friend's stupid boyfriends/girlfriends, so it was only natural for me to ask her about her's. I asked neutral, harmless questions, but still got the information I needed. Follow up her answers with either more questions or inferences that will cause her to give you some sort of reaction.

In the course of conversation with this girl I said, "Oh my gosh it's so cool that your boyfriend does X. You do Y which is similarly demanding (ok maybe this isn't my EXACT word choice haha). Must help to have that in common so you can both understand each others time commitments."

Her 5 seconds of silence followed by "uh... yeah.... sure" told me all I needed to know.

I suggest you wait, though, before you do this. You want to put more time and distance between this conversation and your last conversation.

wow awesome Karak. Push & pull by far best option imo, with more push then pull as this girl seems confused

yeotaJMU, I'm old friends w/ a sorority sister of hers, but I'm pretty certain my friend would not keep her mouth.

Karak, thanks again man. You're awesome. I definitely will work on keeping my emotions in check.

I appreciate the accolades, but don't be too quick to just take my advice as gospel truth. Be sure to think hard about whatever course of action you choose and make sure you're doing what you feel is right.