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Old 04-13-2018, 04:37 PM   #1
plog
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Vegas 2018 Structure & Fee Analysis

My site has loaded the 2018 Vegas tournament structures/fee data for the series that have released their structures.

http://www.rainbowspuppiessunshine.c...ournaments.php


Overview/Rehash:
I created a formula to take a few pieces of data from a structure sheet to score poker tournament structures (S-Points). For the past few summers I've loaded Hold'em and Omaha structure sheets for all summer Vegas tournaments into a searchable website so you can find the ones with the best structures and lowest fees.

Once all structures are released I will fully update my comparison page (http://www.rainbowspuppiessunshine.c...c/analysis.php) to show how things got better or worse from last year.
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Old 04-13-2018, 09:22 PM   #2
TR3V
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Re: Vegas 2018 Structure & Fee Analysis

First off, thanks for putting this together... I appreciate the work you do on this every year.

I noticed a mistake in dates/events - specifically looking at my first week in town, the Venetian $340 NLHE event #13 - 1A is Mon 5/21 and 1B is Tue 5/22. According to your app, 1A is Tue 5/22 and 1B is Wed 5/23 (they are off by one day). I did not research further to look at if other (or maybe all?) events are off, but wanted to make sure you're aware so you can take a look when you get a minute.

Again, thank you.
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Old 04-14-2018, 01:51 AM   #3
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Re: Vegas 2018 Structure & Fee Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by plog View Post
My site has loaded the 2018 Vegas tournament structures/fee data for the series that have released their structures.

http://www.rainbowspuppiessunshine.c...ournaments.php

This is awesome !!!

Tough to beat the regular $340 buy-in event at the Venetian (97 s points) for value.

The best satellite values for the summer are at the Wynn with their 30 minute levels.

The Marathon certainly stands out as unique in terms of price point and S-points. If I make a big cash, I'd give that a shot.

Thank you so much.
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Old 04-14-2018, 01:55 PM   #4
plog
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Re: Vegas 2018 Structure & Fee Analysis

Thanks TR3V. It was just a one off (along with like 5 others). I fixed it and all the other glaring errors.

If anyone sees anything wrong, let me know. And when other's release their structures ping me and I will incorporate them.
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Old 04-14-2018, 02:59 PM   #5
ATC-or-ABC
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Re: Vegas 2018 Structure & Fee Analysis

Thanks for putting this together. I noticed the S-Points for the millionaire maker are different between day 1a and 1b
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Old 04-15-2018, 12:41 AM   #6
Can U Get This Out
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Re: Vegas 2018 Structure & Fee Analysis

Hey Plog
Without doing the digging myself, was wondering if you’ve noticed or accounted for those tournaments which are Big Blind Antes and if so are you noticing any drastic differences (in points), between them and the traditional ante tournaments?
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Old 04-15-2018, 11:03 PM   #7
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Re: Vegas 2018 Structure & Fee Analysis

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Originally Posted by Can U Get This Out View Post
Hey Plog
Without doing the digging myself, was wondering if you’ve noticed or accounted for those tournaments which are Big Blind Antes and if so are you noticing any drastic differences (in points), between them and the traditional ante tournaments?
I don’t believe plog’s formula is capable of handling BBA without some sort of tweaking since a big part of it is calculating orbit costs in relation to level length. This is why the number of players at the table matters in his formula. I’m guessing he could modify it though.

But you can probably gleen some info just from considering the way the BBA works. Since the BBA is usually equal to the BB, I would imagine, under the traditional ante, those levels which have an ante of 1/6 the SB will have a lower orbit cost than the equivalent BBA level, and those levels which have an ante of 1/4 or 1/3 the SB, will have a higher orbit cost depending on the number of players, obviously. I assume these differences all wash out to a large degree, especially when tables are full, but the exact difference will depend on which specific levels you look at. As an example of this... in billybizzle’s analysis of structure “smoothness”, he found the BBA led to smoother increases in orbit costs. However all the increases are greater than most of the ones with the traditional ante. It’s just when chips get colored up under the traditional ante, the orbit cost increases much more during that particular level.
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Old 04-16-2018, 09:48 AM   #8
plog
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Re: Vegas 2018 Structure & Fee Analysis

ATC - thanks and the millionaire is fixed.

CanUGetThisout - My formula/site has no problem with the Big Blind Ante structure. Ironically, for the exact reason akashenk laid out why it would. My formula does focus on Orbit Cost which is the amount a player must blindly put into the pot for one orbit of the button around the table. A big blind ante tournament nicely adheres to that so no tweaking my formula necessary.

The jury is really still out on comparing BBA to regular, but when it comes to the Venetian (the only series thus far that has similiar enough tournaments to do a comparison) regular is better:

#32 BBA - https://www.venetian.com/content/dam...BA_1Day_v2.pdf

#52 Regular - https://www.venetian.com/content/dam...SuperStack.pdf

Both $600, Both 1 Day, both called SuperStack, both starting with $20k. Looking at just the Orbit Costs the BBA appears better:

Level 6: BBA=1000, Reg=1100
Level 10: BBA=2500, Reg=2500
Level 14: BBA=5600, Reg=7600
Level 18: BBA=15000, Reg=19000

However, that's not fair because...the regular tournament has 40 minute levels the BBA has 30. My method/formula handles this nicely with the 100% Minutes variable. For the BBA it is 570 (19 levels * 30 minutes\level) and for the regular it is 720 (18 levels * 40 minutes\level). That variable adjusts the formula for different starting stack sizes and level lengths.

If the level lengths had been equal BBA would have been better, but because each level in the regular tournament is 10 minutes longer the regular is better. In the end, the #32 BBA gets 77 S-Points and #52 regular gets 92. I would deem that a signficant diference.
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Old 04-16-2018, 10:28 AM   #9
akashenk
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Re: Vegas 2018 Structure & Fee Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by plog View Post
ATC - thanks and the millionaire is fixed.

CanUGetThisout - My formula/site has no problem with the Big Blind Ante structure. Ironically, for the exact reason akashenk laid out why it would. My formula does focus on Orbit Cost which is the amount a player must blindly put into the pot for one orbit of the button around the table. A big blind ante tournament nicely adheres to that so no tweaking my formula necessary.

The jury is really still out on comparing BBA to regular, but when it comes to the Venetian (the only series thus far that has similiar enough tournaments to do a comparison) regular is better:

#32 BBA - https://www.venetian.com/content/dam...BA_1Day_v2.pdf

#52 Regular - https://www.venetian.com/content/dam...SuperStack.pdf

Both $600, Both 1 Day, both called SuperStack, both starting with $20k. Looking at just the Orbit Costs the BBA appears better:

Level 6: BBA=1000, Reg=1100
Level 10: BBA=2500, Reg=2500
Level 14: BBA=5600, Reg=7600
Level 18: BBA=15000, Reg=19000

However, that's not fair because...the regular tournament has 40 minute levels the BBA has 30. My method/formula handles this nicely with the 100% Minutes variable. For the BBA it is 570 (19 levels * 30 minutes\level) and for the regular it is 720 (18 levels * 40 minutes\level). That variable adjusts the formula for different starting stack sizes and level lengths.

If the level lengths had been equal BBA would have been better, but because each level in the regular tournament is 10 minutes longer the regular is better. In the end, the #32 BBA gets 77 S-Points and #52 regular gets 92. I would deem that a signficant diference.
Hey, plog. Been a while since I looked at your formula. Where does # players factor into your analysis?
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Old 04-16-2018, 12:47 PM   #10
Can U Get This Out
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Re: Vegas 2018 Structure & Fee Analysis

Thanks Plog

Couple of follow-up questions and comments:

06/22 11:00 AM WSOP #45 ($1K, 30 min levels), appears to be missing.

Will you be adding in the WSOP daily deep stacks?

And lastly, I think the Binions structures have been released.
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Old 04-16-2018, 01:32 PM   #11
plog
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Re: Vegas 2018 Structure & Fee Analysis

Quote:
Where does # players factor into your analysis?
In the [Orbit Cost] of regular tournaments. My formula is on my site and it simply involves [Orbit Cost] of different levels. I define it as everything you have to pay into the pot for an orbit of the button during a level.

My walkthrough/full calculator page has an example and uses a regular tournament. On it I describe what goes into an Orbit Cost and how you mutiply the ante by the number of players in determining it for a level. Of course for a BBA that changes to simply adding all the blinds together. I sort of got lucky in making my actual formula simpler by not breaking down what an [Orbit Cost] actually entailed at the time.

CanUGet--I added WSOP #45. I can't find Binion's structure sheets, the link in the thread is dead. I do see the WSOP dailies are up and Orleans as well. I am off to add both those now.
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Old 04-16-2018, 04:26 PM   #12
Mick Overlast
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Re: Vegas 2018 Structure & Fee Analysis

Hey plog,

Thanks for all the work you do with this!

Binion's structures are on its Facebook page. I found them there the other day.
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Old 04-16-2018, 07:48 PM   #13
akashenk
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Re: Vegas 2018 Structure & Fee Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by plog View Post
In the [Orbit Cost] of regular tournaments. My formula is on my site and it simply involves [Orbit Cost] of different levels. I define it as everything you have to pay into the pot for an orbit of the button during a level.

My walkthrough/full calculator page has an example and uses a regular tournament. On it I describe what goes into an Orbit Cost and how you mutiply the ante by the number of players in determining it for a level. Of course for a BBA that changes to simply adding all the blinds together. I sort of got lucky in making my actual formula simpler by not breaking down what an [Orbit Cost] actually entailed at the time.

CanUGet--I added WSOP #45. I can't find Binion's structure sheets, the link in the thread is dead. I do see the WSOP dailies are up and Orleans as well. I am off to add both those now.
Ok, that makes sense. However be aware that many venues have implemented the BBA to be equal to the BB, rather that a total sum of what antes would be under the normal structure. So, the total ante under BBA is actually less than it would be in the majority of levels in the traditional format (ie when the standard ante is 1/3 or 1/4 the SB)

This is why I conjectured you might need to tweak your formula.
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Old 04-16-2018, 08:03 PM   #14
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Re: Vegas 2018 Structure & Fee Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by akashenk View Post
Ok, that makes sense. However be aware that many venues have implemented the BBA to be equal to the BB, rather that a total sum of what antes would be under the normal structure. So, the total ante under BBA is actually less than it would be in the majority of levels in the traditional format (ie when the standard ante is 1/3 or 1/4 the SB)

This is why I conjectured you might need to tweak your formula.
You might try going to the link and calculating s-points for a tournament to understand the way it works.

Regardless of whether you are playing traditional or BBA, the formula calls for ante cost per orbit. If you are playing traditional it's the ante * # of players and if you're playing BBA, it's the amount of the single BBA.

The model doesn't need to be tweaked for BBA. Just put in the ante cost per orbit.
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Old 04-20-2018, 12:50 PM   #15
plog
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Re: Vegas 2018 Structure & Fee Analysis

Sites up to date and includes structures for everyone but Aria. Also my I've got my comparison page fully loaded:

http://www.rainbowspuppiessunshine.c...c/analysis.php

It compares this years' tournaments to last year, and helps give a baseline for what you should look for in terms of structures and fees for your buy-in range.

Also, I think Planet Hollywood is the place to look to see if button ante/blind structures are a hit or miss with players. My tool says they are essentially the same S-Points. Exactly the same in many instances, a very slight but not signficant advantage to the button ante/blind in a few. Planet Hollywood has a lot of these tournaments at the exact same price-- one uses button ante/blind, one uses regular antes. Keep an eye on how many each of those tourneys get and you will have your answer.

Last edited by plog; 04-20-2018 at 12:57 PM.
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Old 04-20-2018, 02:56 PM   #16
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Re: Vegas 2018 Structure & Fee Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by plog View Post
Sites up to date and includes structures for everyone but Aria. Also my I've got my comparison page fully loaded:

http://www.rainbowspuppiessunshine.c...c/analysis.php

It compares this years' tournaments to last year, and helps give a baseline for what you should look for in terms of structures and fees for your buy-in range.

Also, I think Planet Hollywood is the place to look to see if button ante/blind structures are a hit or miss with players. My tool says they are essentially the same S-Points. Exactly the same in many instances, a very slight but not signficant advantage to the button ante/blind in a few. Planet Hollywood has a lot of these tournaments at the exact same price-- one uses button ante/blind, one uses regular antes. Keep an eye on how many each of those tourneys get and you will have your answer.

Thanks for all your work, plog.

Much appreciated!
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Old 04-23-2018, 02:18 PM   #17
Can U Get This Out
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Re: Vegas 2018 Structure & Fee Analysis

Thanks for this Plog.

Just a couple of things I’ve noticed with some Golden Nugget events/dates:

#59 you have as a $150 Ladies event at 11:00 AM on 6/25, however, the schedule shows this event is at 7:00 PM for $110 and is their “Nightly” tourney.

#60 shows as a $150 Daily on 6/25 yet the schedule I have shows this event is a $360 Big O

Perhaps the version of the GN schedule I have is outdated, apologies if that’s the case.
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Old 04-23-2018, 03:13 PM   #18
plog
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Re: Vegas 2018 Structure & Fee Analysis

I think we both used outdated versions. If you go to their site now:

Schedule: https://www.goldennugget.com/globala...edule-2018.pdf

Structures: https://www.goldennugget.com/content...ure-sheets.pdf

On those, Ladies is #60 on 6/25. Big-O is #57 which I have right.
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