I started this thread because matt was so enamored with this format that the majority of its players do not want.I was afraid it was going to end up at other main events and even the wpt championship. Its perfect for one event per year. Keep it just at bay 101 where its always been. Im fine with that.

Those arguing against Allen's post are mostly focusing on nit-picking about whether 6-handed results in many 4-player hands or not.

Even if he got that slightly wrong, there is no question that 6-handed play is very different to 9-handed play. It certainly favours naturally aggressive players, and in my view accelerates the swing from skill game to crap-shoot in the later stages.

I would be very disappointed if it became a popular trend for big events, and very annoyed if I accidentally entered an event of this kind without noticing it in the publicity.

It seems a classic case of fixing something that isn't broken.

As a casual player and weekend warrior I and many others play these tournaments at Bay 101 every Saturday and Sunday that I can.

I was very disappointed to hear of the 6 handed tables and thought it pandered to the professionals. Guys like me who show up every Saturday and play nine or ten handed are the bread and butter of this game for a very good reason.

So lets face it - I know I have a slim chance in going deep in this and consider myself a fairly competent player. Now if I do go deep I have even less chance.

What also hasn't been mentioned that for every daily tournament 3 or 4 months before the event for every place $1000 or more $250 voucher comes directly out of the prize pool. These are not redeemable for cash, but can be sold - most of the time at less than face value.

Having won 6 of these prior to this year's so that is $1500 that I could have spent where I chose.

How about a little loyalty to the players that show up every day and at least try to make the playing field a little even instead of making it totally out of reach?

Hard rock Hollywood added an extra 35k-70k level late and didnt go to six max at 36 players.

Final table avg well over 50bb.

The fewer players there are, the fewer percentage of starting hands you can fold pre flop. The fewer hands you fold pre flop, the more strategic decisions you must make on all streets. The more strategic decisions that you make per hand you are dealt, the more skill matters. Thus, the fewer players at the table the MORE of a skill game it is, on a per hand bases.

However, varience does go up because pots are bigger, since there is less folding. Since variance is bigger, you get to play fewer hands before you bust out. Fewer hands mean fewer opportunities to make strategic decisions, which reduces the amount of skill when playing short handed in a freeze out tournament.

I think that increased skill from seeing more flops far outweighs the decreased skill from being dealt fewer hands before busting. This is because the extra hands you are dealt at a full table, due to lower variance, mostly involve folding pre flop and therefore don't involve much strategic decision making (skill).

Your analysis makes sense, however I think you miss the mark a bit in two ways...

1) you assume all decisions are made equal. I think everyone would agree that the decision to shove/fold KQs when you have 5BB left is qualitatively different than the decision to call/raise/fold AK to a 3-bet when you are deep. So I think, simply having to make more decisions does not necessarily mean you are applying more skill. And when you are forced to make more decisions due to the structure of the game or the table, I think it makes those decisions even less effectual.

2) secondly, you ignore the fact that in poker, like many things, it isn't necessarily the intrinsic value of whatever it is you are measuring (skill in this case) that's most important. Its the relative value. At a poker table, it doesn't really matter how much skill you have. Its how much skill you have relative to your opponents that really matters. I'm not sure that the skill distribution at a 6-handed table is likely to be more or less advantageous than a 9 or 10-handed table.

Lastly, while there may be some disagreement about whether skill is more or less important in a short-handed game, I think we can all agree that many highly skilled players prefer 6-handed, whereas many lower skilled players do not. So my questions would be, if highly skilled players are interested in making profits, why would they not also prefer the structure that lower-skilled players prefer?

I am fine with going to 6MAX at 36. A compromise would be to allow 7 instead of going down to 4. Go to single table at 9.

This confused me for a bit, but I think your logic is flawed. One way to "prove" it is, is to replace "going to six handed" with "doubling the blinds", in your argument.

If you double the blinds, then you can fold fewer starting hands pre-flop. Then, by your logic : "The fewer hands you fold pre flop, the more strategic decisions you must make on all streets. The more strategic decisions that you make per hand you are dealt, the more skill matters. Thus, the higher the blinds, the MORE of a skill game it is, on a per hand bases."

I think anyone who has reached a point in a tournament where the average is ten BB or less would agree that the higher the blinds, the more luck becomes the determining factor in success. Raising the blinds, and going short-handed, both increase the pressure to play, but they also increase the pressure to get chips in pre-flop, so fewer hands are played on multiple streets.

Although I stand by my view that full-ring play leaves a little more room for skill, the main point is that I don't see the need to change the game part way through the tournament. If people run nine-handed and six-handed tournaments we can each choose our own poison.

Apparently wpt thunder valley may be using this format again in their upcoming main event.

After nearly three full days at thunder valley, a tiny blurb appeared in wpt live updates that 6 max play will start at 36 players.

There were about 48 players left at this point.

Secret 6 max (actually 4-5 max) is alive and well on the world poker tour.

Secret Six Max

It was on the structure sheet, in red type.

Wasn't in the magazine, though.

Over under on how many of the last 48 who knew it was going to 6 max at 36 is around 5 players.

I like how it's a "secret six-max" when Chainsaw posted about the possibility of it appearing in January.

Of the 17 people I've been able to ask, 16 of them knew about it. Probably want to set your line pretty high.

I asked rex clink scales, he said the majority of play was 4 handed from 36 down to the final table.

This is far from inviting for the hordes of local recs who enter this event.

When did they know about it. It was never mentioned in the four days I was there. The first mention of it was on a blurb in wpt live updates with 48 players left.

As Matt pointed out- there is barely any 4 handed play (but alot of 5 handed play). In both bay and TV- I didn't hear anyone that was shocked when we went 6 handed and in both cases it was openly discussed leading up to the redraw. Having said that- I do not think going 6 max late in tournaments is a good idea for poker tournaments, due to lowering the roi of recreational players even more (And by lowering their roi- I mean increasing the pace at which they lose/go broke/stop playing poker tournaments). If anything- we should be changing structures to lower professional's roi (increase recreational's roi/give them a better shot) and moving to 6max late accomplishes the opposite goal. Even though I'm not a fan of the idea- I like that there are choices/options in tournaments, and have no problem when a few tourneys a year have this format.

Lol he never tried this again at LAPC after players were overwhelmingly against the idea.

7 years later and secret rules about the wpt end game reappear.

Dude, you’re obsessed with something nobody else cares about. Let it go and move on with your life. The other thread clearly shows it was within the TDs rights to do what he did. This really isn’t worth coming unhinged about.