Recently there has been a new twist on how the final stages of WPT main events are played out. After playing 9/10 handed for several days, the events are changed to 6 max starting at 36 players.

This format is fine for one event per year (Bay 101), but now has been added to other events including the lapc, and the recent thunder valley event.

This change occurs right as the prize money begins to escalate and completely alters the play up to the final table. In essence, going to 6 max starting shorthanded with only 36 players left, is actually 4-5 handed play for the most part.

Check the updates from the recent event in thunder valley. You'll notice from 36 down to the final table nearly all the hands dealt are 4 or 5 handed. The upside to this is that the final table rates be deeper due to the fact that 4-5 handed play forces players to defend blinds more often and attempt steals more, thereby forcing the action and bustouts. The downside is that players have played for several days of full ring poker to get to this point, and have to survive huge variance 4-5 handed play in order to make the final table. The deeper final table is offset by high variance short handed play for the final 6 tables.

The system wasn't broken for the past 12 years and there's no reason to change the entire dynamics of these main events just because 36 players are left.

For many players in this position, this is their one shot at a wpt title and suddenly the rules have changed dramatically. The extra play at the final table, if any, is offset by forcing 4-5 handed play, in what was a several day 9 handed event, for the final 6 tables. Now, when all the money and prestige is on the line, the event becomes 4-5 handed and a series of huge swing pots until the final table is reached.

Th old system was fine. Look at the last borgata event. They played down normally without going 6 handed at 36 and the avg stack at the final table was over 60 big blinds.


WPT Final Table: Seating & Chip Counts
Level 31: 50,000-100,000, 15,000 ante
Seat 1. Vlad Mezheritsky - 1,390,000 (13 bb)
Seat 2. Jared Jaffee - 6,620,000 (66 bb)
Seat 3. Anthony Maio - 9,500,000 (95 bb)
Seat 4. Anthony Merulla - 3,445,000 (34 bb)
Seat 5. David Paredes - 9,650,000 (96 bb)
Seat 6. Farid Jattin - 6,115,000 (61 bb)


The system wasn't broken for the past 12 years and there's no reason to change the entire dynamics of these events just because 36 players are left.

If these events want to continue this format maybe they should rename them wpt mix max main events. 9-10 handed until 36 players, then 4-5 handed until the final table.

I've added a poll for your opinion. I realize a lot of online pros in this forum prefer short handed play late, and that will probably affect the voting, but the wpt is not tailored to online pros. It's supposed to be an event where on any given day, anyone can win.

I think a mix is best... some 9 handed some 6 handed.

Charder, Maybe they should start 6 handed earlier, because short handed it's nearly all 4-5 handed

Hearing reports that jville wpt is following the trend.

Agree completely. Naturally there is plenty of 6-7 handed play in the final few tables. Why they want to make it 4-5 handed is beyond me.

Agree, keep it the way it is or maybe go 8handed so it doesnt affect the play much. 4-6 handed is just too different from full ring and higher variance

And forcing people to play a bunch of high variance marginal spots 4 handed doesn't increase the skill level, in fact the opposite effect.

Exactly. When you get short you naturally end up playing 6-7 handed anyway. Why force this to higher variance at 4-5 handed with so much at stake.

I agree as well. Doesn't this heavily favor pros as well because they can get into a ton of marginal spots vs amateurs who are more open to making mistakes?

Seems to be an unintended siphon of money out of amateurs.

Surprised that on my Facebook discussing this topic internet pros like dfish and josh Kay are against the 6max late.

100% agree

The fewer people at the table the more hands I get to play and the more opportunity I get to apply my edge, so I like it. I'd prefer if they went to 6 handed earlier.

There should be no 4-handed play until you get down to 19 players, right? And then its just one table out of four playing 4-handed until one player is eliminated, and then no 4-handed play until you are down to 14 players.

Playing down from 36 players to 9, less than 5% of the overall play at these tables should be 4-handed, and the majority of play should indeed be 6-handed.

Totally wrong it's almost all 4-5 handed. Look at the updates from thunder valley. The only time it's six handed is at 36, 24, 18 and 12. Once people bust it's all 5 and some 4.

I'd wager that more hands are played 4-5 handed than 6 handed from 36 to final table.

But it's only 5-handed at some tables and 6-handed at others, and 4-handed very rarely. If you assume the same number of hands are played at each table before each elimination, you end up with something like 50% 6-handed, 45% 5-handed, and less than 5% 4-handed.

it should never get 4 handed if they balance the tables correctly.

if there are two knock outs in one hand then play should stop due to being short handed until table gets balanced out.

maybe go to 6 handed at 18 players left

Here we go again, It's not a WPT trend and is not a part of other WPT events except for those on the "California Swing," it does make the Final Table deeper (my goal) and has been in use at Bay 101 (deepest FT's anywhere) since 2006 (not a new concept), plus he exaggerates when he says mostly 4-5 handed as you can see below.

36
9-9-9-9
6-6-6-6-6-6

35
9-9-9-8
6-6-6-6-6-5

34
9-9-8-8
6-6-6-6-5-5

33
9-8-8-8
6-6-6-5-5-5

32
8-8-8-8
6-6-5-5-5-5

31
8-8-8-7
6-5-5-5-5-5

30
8-8-7-7
6-6-6-6-6

29
8-7-7-7
6-6-6-6-5

28
7-7-7-7
6-6-6-5-5

27
9-9-9
6-6-5-5-5

26
9-9-8
6-5-5-5-5

25
9 handed tables 9-8-8
6 handed tables 5-5-5-5-5

24
8-8-8
6-6-6-6

23
8-8-7
6-6-6-5

22
8-7-7
6-6-5-5

21
7-7-7
6-5-5-5

20
7-7-6
5-5-5-5

19
7-6-6
5-5-5-4

18
9-9
6-6-6

17
9-8
6-6-5

16
8-8
6-5-5

15
8-7
5-5-5

14
7-7
5-5-4

13
7-6
5-4-4

12
6-6
6-6

11
6-5
6-5

10
10
5-5

9
9
5-4

8
8
4-4

7
7
7

6
6
6

5
5
5

4
4
4

3
3
3

2
2
2

1
1
1

WPT LAPC had 534 players this year and 517 in 2013
WPT Bay 101 had 718 entries this year and 643 in 2013
WPT Thunder Valley had 465 in its 1st year

Allen Kessler is an incessant nitpicker who has trolled me on 5 minor issues over the last two months on tournaments that have run smoothly without incident except for Bay 101 where we ran out of space to accommodate such a huge day 2 field. He also has a deal with the WSOP not to complain about their events which seems unfair and means that his criticisms are biased should be taken less serious.

I realize not everybody would not like this format but I can guarantee you it has NOT translated into 6 max wizards winning at Bay 101 in the 8 years we have used it. I do as always appreciate the input and support of the players and that will not stop but enough is enough with this guy.

My wife says I need to stop responding to him and I am going to take her advice starting now.

C'mon Matt, you and Allen are like the Felix and Oscar of the poker community. Deep down you guys really like each other.

First of all attendance didn't increase at lapc because people wanted 6max. No one even knew about it.. I polled every one of my tables over the time I was there and exactly one player knew it was 6 max at 36.

I posted this discussion on my Facebook and the overwhelming consensus was that it was ridiculous to go 6 handed after playing 9 handed for an entire event, unless it was advertised as mix max. It's fine for one event (Bay 101) which has historically played out that way. The way Matt was talking at thunder valley, it appeared as if he was going with this idea for more and more main events in the future. I was worried that the wpt championship or Florida $5m guarantee might be the next event with it. I wanted to be sure he heard from the players themselves before he continued this experiment further.

Look at Matts chart. The one that starts nine handed is way more player friendly and eventually gets down to 6-7 players anyway. Why force this to 4-5 handed?

By Matts own numbers you actually do play more 5 and four handed than six handed when you go to 6max at 36 players. This is because the tables start off so short. Count the number of times you play 6 handed, five handed and four handed. You'll see that MOST OF THE TIME you end up playing 4-5 handed. EXACTLY what I'd claimed.

This is not nit picky. It ruins the playing experience for recreational players who may only have one shot in their lifetime at a wpt title.

Read the over 100 comments on my Facebook and the list of prominent players who "liked" my post before calling it nonsense.

I am one of the wpts best customers. I've played over 100 main events and have a very good feel regarding what most players want. It's not an event that suddenly goes from 9 handed to mostly 4-5 handed. Believe me.

Attendance at Jacksonville wpt was way down. Maybe if they'd gone to 6 max at 36 players numbers would have gone up. Do you see how this analogy doesn't work? Saying that bay 101 and lapc numbers were up because of the 6max rule is just as bad an analogy.

I was on the rail of LAPC, Bay, and Thunder Valley until the FTs and it was not MOSTLY 4-5 handed play. 5 handed yes, it's the nature of a 6max tournament when its down to the last few tables that 5 handed play occurred. 4 handed play barely happened at all.

At that, I'm fine with whatever the recreational players want n I think most would want full ring tables.

But this isn't even really that big of an issue. Bay's done it and it was posted for LAPC n Thunder valley n I don't know of a single person who went deep in those that complained about it being 6 handed at the end.

Not sure why you even care Allen, 6 handed play starts a few payjumps above the mincash where you usually land.

It's a big issue if it deters recreational players or some pros from entering. Bracelet winner randy ohel didn't enter lapc main because he found out it would be 6 max at the end.

There was very little publicity other than fine print at the bottom of the lapc structure sheet that this was going on. It had played out normally for the past 10 years. Such an important change should have been at the top of the structure sheet and announced every day.

Matt,

Thanks for clarifying that the WPT is not going to use this format on any other WPT events. I like many of the new ideas you introduce. I was one of the players that was fine with the 40 minute levels and extra payouts at the SHR $10M guarantee last year.

I hate being critical (and on Allen's side) but I do think that it would be a bad move to ever contemplate changing any more WPT main events to this 9-handed/6-handed format. It completely changes how the tournament is played after basically getting into the money. I specifically did not play Thunder Valley after playing Bay 101 because of this format. There is a limited place for this type of tournament structure just not as a regular WPT main event structure.

+1

There are several other players just like you. Matts on his silent treatment now, so you may not get a response to your very well thought out post.