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Old 04-03-2018, 01:04 PM   #126
carlo
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2018 FINAL

If there is more "action" with the big blind ante then it appears to me that this is secondary to the elimination of 25's and more to the point the use of 100's as the standard of exchange. Bets and raises will be bigger, perforce earlier as starting with 15K chips under the old system without early antes and 25 chip standard is far more conservative than starting with 15K chips under a 100 chip standard, early on.

I believe the Wynn rep stated that he added more chips to the starting stacks due to this apparent transformation. Gimme more, gimme more.

It appears that this isn't happening everywhere( add more chips) . The delusion is that the action is due to the new ante system but in fact it is the change over for the most part to the 100's as standard. OK, lets play, quick and early does its deed.

By a previous calculation in another thread we're talking of a 10-15 % loss of starting stack due to a particular big blind system. Effectively in a 15K system it has been washed down to an effective 13.5K starting stack.

The other difficulties also arise when playing shorthanded for there is no correspondence between the old and new systems . If a table becomes 6 handed you can't say that you are putting in 9 antes/round instead of the 6, which would be expected. This is all a function of the structure, not the easy pitching of antes.

I have noticed that here at the Goliath, the big bind ante system, as envisioned and structured by Chris does, in the main, correspond one for one, but cannot cause one to put in 6 antes total during 6 handed play but the full 9. on,and on, and on.
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Old 04-03-2018, 01:21 PM   #127
carlo
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2018 FINAL

Just to make it clearer, ideally if we were to take the conventional structure and antes such as of a Goliath main event and we were on a computer there would be no problem.

The computer would automatically take the antes and in fact that is what happens when on line. Where they place them on the table is insignificant. If there were 6 at the table only 6 antes would be taken and if 8 handed, 8 antes.

Also, if the computer takes the total from the blinds there would still be a built in unfairness though less so with respect to the antes taken from each individual, as it is online today.

The heaven of "no effort" rules but the structure and starting stacks live a life of their own and have nothing to do with the "joy of no effort". finis
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Old 04-03-2018, 02:06 PM   #128
marky147
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2018 FINAL

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Originally Posted by Cabezon View Post
Is this the part where you tell us all the pro-BBA ante people are idiot liberal snowflakes like you did on twitter?
Amazing
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Old 04-03-2018, 07:30 PM   #129
seiken_nick
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2018 FINAL

Chris- I know you wanted the plo high roller to be a one day, but 15k and forty minute levels for a 3k seems fast. Solid structure I hope?
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Old 04-03-2018, 11:51 PM   #130
akashenk
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2018 FINAL

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Originally Posted by busto23 View Post
No offence, how many live tournaments do you play yearly? You self-admitted on another thread that you're basically a keyboard warrior on 2p2. I'm not "imagining" anything, I'm speaking from experience. .
I have played between 75 and 100 live tournaments per year for the last 10+ years. And I typically play about 15 or so in Vegas each year. I don't play turbos so most of these are full single day and multi-day events. I 'have no idea if this is a large number or not compared to most, and certainly doesn't compare to tourney circuit grinders. But its actually quit a lot IMO for a rec who has a day job. In any case, I play a lot of live tournament poker.

And when I say you are imaging something, it is the time savings gained by eliminating antes. I am not saying you at imagining cases where players aren't paying attention or dealers screwed up. You are just imagining how big a factor this is.

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What "investigations" have you done bud? When's the last time you played a live tournament? Jesus. I played 20 just past two weeks. Numerous times dealers wasted time (including many where floor was called!) figuring out who didn't pay, or making sure people that were on their phones paid. And that's just the tables I was on.
I did an experiment to see how long it actually takes to collect antes. I believe I posted my full results over the course of three 50 minute levels in the Wynn thread. Bottom line was, collecting antes took between 5 and just over 20 seconds, with an average of about 11 seconds. This represented some 6% of the total length of hands. My experiment wasn't scientific, but I think my methodology was sound and the results were consistent. I plan on repeating it at some point. Anyhow, I would allow that there is variance in this sort of thing which might lead to others having different results. But outside of some pretty special circumstances (like truly poor dealers), I just don't see how the number could ever go above 10% consistently. And I would posit that people would not feel a 10% difference in how fast hands are played. Iin any case, if your table mates are truly that clueless, then I'm sure they are slowing things down at an even greater rate in things that have nothing to do with the collection of antes.

So whatever people are "feeling", it isn't time savings. Maybe they just like not having to think about posting antes. Or, as I have repeatedly suggested, maybe the occasional delay, even its only 11 seconds, is enough to annoy people so that they inflate the problem to much greater proportions than its deserves.
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Old 04-04-2018, 12:12 AM   #131
akashenk
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2018 FINAL

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Originally Posted by TDChrisG View Post
BB ante is certainly an action generator - especially in 6 max and turbo events. That seems to be what the players like about BB ante, action. Are more hands actually dealt, I think yes. But I think the players like the simplicity of one ante versus an entire table.
I doubt players who take the "simplicity" angle understand or care about the drawbacks of the change. If the requirement to post an ante each hand is taxing enough so that removing that requirement is relief to someone, then its unlikely they are going to be the type to care about things like orbit costs, and table inequities. I would be curious though, instead of asking someone "do you like this or do you not", or even "what do you like/dislike about this", if TDs would simply explain to players what the benefits (real, not imagined) of the new system are and what the drawbacks are, and then ask them what they think. I really believe there are a large number of players who are not aware that this change does come with some warts.

As for the "action" angle... in my experience, increases in "action" lead to DECREASED hands per hour. This is because "action" usually means more player per hand, more decisions being made, larger pots and hands that go to the river (and sometimes stay there for a while) more often. Now, I am sure that this is not some sort of axiom, but still, it makes sense. In any case, I would kind of be surprised if the BB ante led to more "action". It may however lead to more "excitement", which is a different thing.
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Old 04-04-2018, 12:20 AM   #132
akashenk
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2018 FINAL

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Originally Posted by wrapdraw View Post
Looking forward to this series, it will be my first time playing any events in it and I will be staying at your property. As far as the BBA (I am not for or against this BTW as I have never played in a tournament that had this.) Would that mean the BB would post the 200 for the table and no one else would ante?
Whatever BB ante level it is... yes the BB is the only player to post the ante. It isn't really "for the table" because, depending on the structure, the amount posted is not likely the equivalent of the total of what individual antes might be. For example, if the level is 100-200 with a 200 ante, the 200 ante is not the equivalent of 25 antes from the table, since the total antes in the normal structure would be # players x 25 and in the BB ante it is always 200. This is kind of where one of the warts of the system comes from since players at a short-handed table will be paying the BB ante more often than players at tables with more players, and will therefor incur a larger cost per hand dealt while they are relatively short handed.
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Old 04-04-2018, 12:34 AM   #133
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2018 FINAL

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Originally Posted by ran View Post
I feel for TD Chris, whose thread has been hijacked. This should be about the Phamous Series. While BBA is featured in some of the events, making it somewhat topical, we have a thread to discuss the pros and cons of BBA. Such discussion should be there.
Chris started the BB ante conversation in this thread. Its probably like trying to put the toothpaste back into the tube to try and steer the conversation in other directions, but I suppose it's not impossible. Normally these threads are 90% people bitching and moaning about this or that aspect of a schedule, tournament series, or venue. I, for one, think the BB ante topic is far more interesting than talking about lighting, or speaker positioning and volume. But, if people want to talk about that sort of stuff, that's ok.

Speaking of... Chris, assuming the tiny dancers (or whatever group the are), will be back this year, I hope you put up some sort of temporary wall between the mezz poker area and the walkway between the convention area and escalators. I'd hate to see a repeat of that nasty scene last summer.
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Old 04-08-2018, 04:17 AM   #134
busto23
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2018 FINAL

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Originally Posted by akashenk View Post
I did an experiment to see how long it actually takes to collect antes. I believe I posted my full results over the course of three 50 minute levels in the Wynn thread. Bottom line was, collecting antes took between 5 and just over 20 seconds, with an average of about 11 seconds. This represented some 6% of the total length of hands. My experiment wasn't scientific, but I think my methodology was sound and the results were consistent. I plan on repeating it at some point. Anyhow, I would allow that there is variance in this sort of thing which might lead to others having different results. But outside of some pretty special circumstances (like truly poor dealers), I just don't see how the number could ever go above 10% consistently. And I would posit that people would not feel a 10% difference in how fast hands are played. Iin any case, if your table mates are truly that clueless, then I'm sure they are slowing things down at an even greater rate in things that have nothing to do with the collection of antes.

So whatever people are "feeling", it isn't time savings. Maybe they just like not having to think about posting antes. Or, as I have repeatedly suggested, maybe the occasional delay, even its only 11 seconds, is enough to annoy people so that they inflate the problem to much greater proportions than its deserves.
Your "experiment" if I can call it that does not address what I just mentioned, and you quoted: there are numerous times when collection of antes does not last 11 seconds. Today I played 2 live WSOPc events, and it happened 5 times at MY table when someone didn't ante and nobody would admit to it, floor was called 3 times, significant minutes were lost. I wasn't tracking exactly how many times it happens, but I guarantee you it's often, especially when antes are more than 1 single chip (50, 75, 200, 300, 400 antes.)

Factor in poor dealers are some venues especially in low buyin tournaments during the WSOP in the summer, you definitely lose time.

Bottom line, as Chris said, I've played quite a few BB from ante events recently and EVERYONE playing them LOVED the new format.
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Old 04-08-2018, 10:06 AM   #135
akashenk
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2018 FINAL

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Originally Posted by busto23 View Post
Your "experiment" if I can call it that does not address what I just mentioned, and you quoted: there are numerous times when collection of antes does not last 11 seconds. Today I played 2 live WSOPc events, and it happened 5 times at MY table when someone didn't ante and nobody would admit to it, floor was called 3 times, significant minutes were lost. I wasn't tracking exactly how many times it happens, but I guarantee you it's often, especially when antes are more than 1 single chip (50, 75, 200, 300, 400 antes.)

Factor in poor dealers are some venues especially in low buyin tournaments during the WSOP in the summer, you definitely lose time.

Bottom line, as Chris said, I've played quite a few BB from ante events recently and EVERYONE playing them LOVED the new format.
I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say "what I just mentioned". Anyhow, you claim that you didn't keep track of things, but then tell us how many times something happened. Well, if you didn't keep track, then I have a hard time believing you. Its not that I think you're lying. I just think you're misremembering. Like I have repeatedly said, people have a way of overinflating issues when it comes to collecting antes.

You say the floor had to be called over 3 times to your table when someone didn't ante (or own up to it). While I may not play the volume of events you do, I do not recall the last time the floor had to be called over for something like that. I'm sure its happened, but very infrequently. 3 times in a day? I would imagine the floor would have to start handing out penalties or whatever for that sort of nonsense. That just doesn't sound like anything close to a typical case.

And no, EVERYONE did not LOVE the new format, since you certainly didn't gauge the opinions of EVERYONE and it would be a virtual statistical impossibility anyhow. But I'm sure lots of people did like and/or love it. There is definitely a majority on that side of the issue, at least if we are to believe 2+2. That doesn't mean y'all are right.

Anyhow, I had an opportunity to repeat my experiment yesterday. I haven't had a chance to compile the results. Will do so and post in the other BB Ante thread when I am able to. But it doesn't look like anything has changed. The ante collection process does not contribute significantly to the length of hands the vast majority of the time. Claims that is does represents people wanting it to be true in order to advocate for something else.
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Old 04-08-2018, 11:59 AM   #136
michelle227
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2018 FINAL

Statistical outliers are NOT a reason to make wholesale changes to ANY sport or game. And even presuming for argument sake that a floor was called three times for ante-related issues, that is a statistical outlier. I would counter with the complete lack of calls during the event I played last week at the Wynn...other than the request to balance tables since we were six-handed for multiple orbits in the mid-levels while others were full.
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Old 04-08-2018, 12:39 PM   #137
carlo
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2018 FINAL

I find it difficult to comprehend that we should be gleeful because the dealer has less work to do or that we, somehow, have a better experience because we don't have to throw in antes.

How much work is it and since when are we the time and motion study advocates for the house. Its nuts, the game was never in arrears with the ante pitching but it does display the effectiveness of a propagandizing effect through an autocratic endorsement.

What I see is a small blind/big blind ratio increasing from 1:2 to 1:4 which hurts early in the tournament but due to the structure (not the non-ante pitch) smooths out and actually becomes less, effectively, as the tournament goes on. If one has survived the early stages it is an advantage.

The structures have changed in order to accommodate this so called relief(no pitching). The WSOP, in their new big blind ante events have kept the 25 chips and are not putting in antes( of any kind) through the first three levels and to me, it was a startling improvement. It didn't start until level #4 and after this level the 25 chips were removed. Usually, the 25's were removed at the end of level #8.

The other guys, again, start at the 100 chip basis without 25's and state that, as the Wynn rep did, they added more starting chips to accommodate this disorder. The question is, did the player receive enough of a increase to offset the inflationary aspect of starting with the 100 chip basis?

I suspect the players will be gliding through the event, with less resistance, and as usual, bust out unaware of the effect of the structure( not the non pitching in of the antes).

We have a new structure; play the game ....

As an aside, how can the idea of "dead money" or "dead antes" mean anything in any way ? When they are out there they are real and definitely not "dead".
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Old 04-08-2018, 10:46 PM   #138
zoogenhiem
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2018 FINAL

Run It Up Reno (Jason Somerville's event at the Peppermill in Reno, NV) just ran with BB ante in most events. While I was not there, I heard it was a big hit for many reasons, most frequently mentioned to me so far having been antes from the start and convenience of not having to put out an ante every hand. I can't prove statistically that "everyone loved it", but I have heard 0 complaints, have heard about 0 complaints, and at least a dozen people have personally told me they were big fans.
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Old 04-08-2018, 10:56 PM   #139
akashenk
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2018 FINAL

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Originally Posted by zoogenhiem View Post
Run It Up Reno (Jason Somerville's event at the Peppermill in Reno, NV) just ran with BB ante in most events. While I was not there, I heard it was a big hit for many reasons, most frequently mentioned to me so far having been antes from the start and convenience of not having to put out an ante every hand. I can't prove statistically that "everyone loved it", but I have heard 0 complaints, have heard about 0 complaints, and at least a dozen people have personally told me they were big fans.
I assume that sloth will definitely be a factor in many people's view of the format.

Last edited by akashenk; 04-08-2018 at 11:09 PM.
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Old 04-09-2018, 09:21 AM   #140
plog
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2018 FINAL

I can't believe the Binion's summer series thread (https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/6...nions-1708751/) has been up for 2 days and there's not even one mention, much less several dissertations, about the merits/evils of the BB ante structure on it.

For shame.
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Old 04-09-2018, 09:52 AM   #141
wrapdraw
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2018 FINAL

Chris, I couldn't seem to find this anywhere or maybe I was just missing it but are all the events reentry?

Thanks
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Old 04-09-2018, 10:11 AM   #142
carlo
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2018 FINAL

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Originally Posted by plog View Post
I can't believe the Binion's summer series thread (https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/6...nions-1708751/) has been up for 2 days and there's not even one mention, much less several dissertations, about the merits/evils of the BB ante structure on it.

For shame.
Trouble maker. but structures aren't up as of yet. lol
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Old 04-09-2018, 01:40 PM   #143
michelle227
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2018 FINAL

Quote:
Originally Posted by plog View Post
I can't believe the Binion's summer series thread (https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/6...nions-1708751/) has been up for 2 days and there's not even one mention, much less several dissertations, about the merits/evils of the BB ante structure on it.

For shame.
As of last Thursday morning (before I left from Las Vegas), the staff on site were claiming structures had not been finalized and it was unknown whether they were using the crappy BBA.
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Old 04-09-2018, 02:14 PM   #144
salette
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2018 FINAL

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...07&postcount=6
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Old 04-10-2018, 04:58 PM   #145
TDChrisG
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2018 FINAL

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Originally Posted by wrapdraw View Post
Chris, I couldn't seem to find this anywhere or maybe I was just missing it but are all the events reentry?

Thanks
yes
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Old 04-10-2018, 04:59 PM   #146
TDChrisG
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2018 FINAL

Quote:
Originally Posted by plog View Post
I can't believe the Binion's summer series thread (https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/6...nions-1708751/) has been up for 2 days and there's not even one mention, much less several dissertations, about the merits/evils of the BB ante structure on it.

For shame.
should maybe ask them on their thread about it
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Old 04-13-2018, 12:28 AM   #147
dantheman003
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2018 FINAL

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Originally Posted by TDChrisG View Post
Good morning, below is our base structure we will be using for all events besides daily turbos and sattys. BBA represents "big blind ante" for events that will utilize the big blind ante. Key changes are single 100 - 200 - 25 level and the addition of 7,000 - 14,000 - 2,000 and 70,000 - 140,000 - 20,000. For events utilizing big blind ante, the big blind ante will drop to the size of the small blind once 5 players are remaining in the tournament.


Also considering big blind ante across the board for all events...thoughts?

Level Ante BBA SB BB
1 50 100
2 75 150
3 25 200 100 200
4 25 300 150 300
5 50 400 200 400
6 50 500 250 500
7 75 600 300 600
8 100 800 400 800
9 100 1,000 500 1,000
10 200 1,200 600 1,200
11 200 1,600 800 1,600
12 300 2,000 1,000 2,000
13 400 2,400 1,200 2,400
14 400 3,000 1,500 3,000
15 500 4,000 2,000 4,000
16 500 5,000 2,500 5,000
17 500 6,000 3,000 6,000
18 1,000 8,000 4,000 8,000
19 1,000 10,000 5,000 10,000
20 2,000 12,000 6,000 12,000
21 2,000 14,000 7,000 14,000
22 2,000 16,000 8,000 16,000
23 3,000 20,000 10,000 20,000
24 4,000 24,000 12,000 24,000
25 5,000 30,000 15,000 30,000
26 5,000 40,000 20,000 40,000
27 5,000 50,000 25,000 50,000
28 10,000 60,000 30,000 60,000
29 10,000 80,000 40,000 80,000
30 10,000 100,000 50,000 100,000
31 20,000 120,000 60,000 120,000
32 20,000 140,000 70,000 140,000
33 20,000 160,000 80,000 160,000
34 30,000 200,000 100,000 200,000
Chris, for the tournaments with multiple starting flights, what are they playing down to? 10% of the field?

I assume day 2 restart for these tournaments will start at lowest level of all the day 1's?

Thank you
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Old 04-13-2018, 12:42 PM   #148
salette
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2018 FINAL

when do you plan te release structure sheets please ?
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Old 04-13-2018, 02:02 PM   #149
TDChrisG
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2018 FINAL

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when do you plan te release structure sheets please ?
finishing touches going on now, anticipate by Tuesday
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Old 04-13-2018, 02:05 PM   #150
TDChrisG
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2018 FINAL

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Originally Posted by dantheman003 View Post
Chris, for the tournaments with multiple starting flights, what are they playing down to? 10% of the field?

I assume day 2 restart for these tournaments will start at lowest level of all the day 1's?

Thank you
Depends. For events like low roller we plan to pay 12% and play to 6%. Other events will play to 12% of the field and halt with play resuming at the youngest flight to achieve 12% of the field. Some other events will also utilize day one payouts with day one playing a fixed amount of levels.

Finalizing structure sheets over the weekend.
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