After WSOP running massive series successfully and Venetian and Wynn running big tournaments series regularly with great success , what are the hold back factors for Borgata, Ceasars North East Casino (NJ, PA, MD) and Parx ? Anyone has any information ?

Yeah this is frustrating for folks in the East. I think MD Live has a series in a month or two. There’s a WSOP Circuit event at Turning Stone in NY in 1st quarter. But I agree, would love to see some AC, East PA, Pittsburgh, OH series happen.

It feels like a massive void of poker tournaments/series in this region.

In my opinion regarding the Borgata, I think they still have a dealer shortage. When I went in December 2020, they were starting about 10 new dealers. In addition, I believe they make less money from tourneys than cash games.
From their perspective, they are reserving dealers who cannot be available for table games due to the tourney. There would need to be a guarantee of enough money to attract players from the tri-state area which risks an overlay. In addition, due to new covid strains (regardless of transmission rate, danger, etc...), and possible new regulations or worrying about an outbreak since they aren't checking vaccination status according to their website.

They did start up some smaller events for December 2021 though.

We know all the prevailing circumstances. WSOP ,Venetian and Wynn has faced same but they overcome it.
I don’t know how Golden Nugget, Hard Rock , and Ocean Casino are doing in general!

This is the best opportunity to get in to Poker Tournament and attract 1000’s of new players to their casinos.

I understand establish casino like Borgata and Harrahs don’t want to take any chances but Golden Nugget, Hard Rock , and Ocean what are they waiting for ?

If they are ready , WPT and MSPT series are ready to jump in with them.

suck ass

I think this is the key thing. I’ve heard parx/ borgata have had dealer shortages. Also tournaments aren’t really valuable to casinos when they can run cash games and just rake every hand. Casinos are making a lot more money in cash vs tournaments so that should explain why tournaments are on the low demand side of things.


Hmm, I’ve been to Vegas 3 times this year. My only advice is to travel if you are serious about the game even though paying for a flight and long stay kinda sucks. I agree regarding wanting mtts in the northeast but it doesn’t look so hot. Have heard nothing from parx/ borgata which are probably the best places for solid mtt series in the northeast. Foxwoods seems to be running more daily type tournies. Not a fan of the crappy structures Foxwoods have but I would go for a series if it was all that was available to the northeast. Travel folks. Solid series in TX, FL, and Vegas. Venetian runs a deep stack series every month basically and the structures are amazing. I know it’s costly but very worth it if you ask me.

Btw, Turning Stone had a WSOP circuit event in March. I expect all of the northeast regs to be there bc the demand is high and we arent getting parx/ borgata mtts. Would expect the numbers to be insane. TS just had a $460 that hit 838 runners for 2 flights. Numbers could have been much higher if dealer shortages didn’t exist. I def expect 300+ runners for even the smaller $400 mtts for this circuit stop.

I have a hard time wrapping my head around the whole “poker rooms make too much take off cash and aren’t looking to get back into hosting tournament series anytime soon” line of thought.

That’s certainly how it appears to be locally where I am, folks here make this same argument to me.

I suppose it would resonate more with me if I didn’t see “other” casinos/card rooms in the South, Mid-West, and West running massive tourney events like it’s pre March ‘20.

Generally speaking, if a poker room made more money via cash game rake, then why would there ever be any tournament series anywhere..

Players enjoy tournaments so they still should offer them.

I was talking with some poker players in vegas and they claim the venetian is incentivized to run tournaments rather than cash games but I don't know why that may be the case

Very Logical point !

Unless WSOP Management, Venetian and othe Poker venue in FL , TX and Ca figured out how to make huge $$ On tournaments.
And so called Poker managers in north East has no clue or they are incompetent to figure it out. Otherwise why All the above venues run a month or 2 month long Poker tournaments series which is attended by 100’s of thousands players from all over the world.

* I have to admit one fact for Borgata.
One very knowledgeable person on east cost Poker scene Mr. Tab Duchateau is not running Borgata Poker Room for some time . He was The responsible person for success of Borgata Poker.

Why is this hard to understand for people? The main incentive for a poker room is to make $ and has nothing to do with making poker players happy.

If there is an option to pick from running a tournament (let’s say a $300+50) with 300 players. That is 30 tables of players and 30 dealers that could be dealing cash but rather the casino makes $15k from a tournament. Look at the opportunity cost for this. If you run 30
Tables of cash instead, im sure for 8+ hours- they easily could make more than $15k if cash games were the main focus. $15k to run a tournament really isn’t a lot of money. You have to pay dealers, lose the ability to run more cash games, and have people tied into a tournament that can’t play cash. Not sure why people can’t understand this?

Borgata and parx are not running big mtt events now. However they can get 30-40 tables of cash games on the weekend so they honestly could run tournaments if they wanted to but have no incentive to. The argument that cash is more profitable than running a tournament should
be easy to understand. There is a dealer shortage that adds to all of this but clear cash games > mtts in the northeast.

Right. I understand the math behind cash game rake and tournament rake. Thanks for the summary.

Was just curious about why venues who run tournament series would run them…. at all…. If they aren’t as profitable (long-term),like full-time cash.

In this hypothetical 8-hour tournament that has 300 entries, the house picked up $15K in rake. But, they did not have 30 x 8 = 240 table-hours (and dealer-hours) invested. Players bust out, fewer tables and dealers needed as time goes by. And the poker room is hoping that many of those players now get into a cash game after they bust the tournament. It is probably closer to 100 hours of total table and dealer time to run this event. That works out to $150/hour/table in revenue. That is probably about the same amount of revenue they generate from their cash games.

In the old days, tournament rake was super low. And tournaments were more of a loss leader to get players in the door. Most tournament players would jump into a cash game after busting, especially if they busted early enough. I remember when a typical $300 tournament would be $300 + $15-20. Now, there are lots of tournament-only players who almost never play cash. Tournaments can't be profitably used as a loss leader. So now the rake structure is more like your example of $300 + $50. With tournament rake so high compared to days past, a poker room can make plenty of money from just running tournaments.

Cheers, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Greg we talked in person many times . I agree with almost everything you just said above.

One thing you said is hard to digest You said “.....
That works out to $150/hour/table in revenue. That is probably about the same amount of revenue they generate from their cash games...”

How can casino make $150 per hour per table in cash games when as per Poker Atlas websites “ the rack per 1/2 hour per table is $5-$9 on most of the game “ . May be I am not understanding correctly or it is per pot rake .

Most cash games average 30 or so hands per hour. So if they're raking an average of $5/hand, that works out to about $150/hour in rake.

If it is a time charge game, similar math applies. If they are charging $5-9 per half hour, times 9 or 10 players, that would be about $125/hour on average.

My only point is that modern tournaments collect enough in rake that they aren't really that much less profitable than cash games for the house. The exception would be the really low buyin daily tournaments. If the cost for a small tournament is something like $50+15, as a percentage, it is costlier than the $300+50 event. But, even though this is probably a fast structure, with only $15 in rake, the house will probably only get about $75/table/hour. At this price, they would prefer the same players to sit at a cash game instead.

My guess is that the biggest issue with running tournaments is the staffing. Cash game play is more consistent. Tournaments, you need more dealers at the start, and then soon start losing tables, and you don't need all the dealers anymore. But the dealers don't want to come in to work, and then be sent home 2-3 hours later. It is probably hard to be cost effective with your staffing, and keep your dealers happy with their scheduling, if a lot of your business is these daily tournaments. But maybe it's easier than I am guessing.

Cheers, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

I see the light at the end of tunnel!!

It’s atleast 4 months away.

But I hear rumbling of Borgata Spring Poker Series in early April .

Cheers !

Thanks for sharing this. Is this solid info or just a rumor? I’m still a little worried about Covid delaying the return for the northeast. Seems like #s are going up in ny right now but hoping states just soldier on through this and stuff starts to get back to normal.

This is as solid inside information as it can be . It is not a rumor. They are actually in planning stage.
But one can not predict what is the future will be in April due to civid epidemics.
Hopefully they will figure their way out like WSOP .

That makes sense. I hope they can overcome the logistics and can see new maths of Poker .

Thx Sir .

This is not a rumor or any information I have.

My wishful thinking is after a pause of over a year and half on Poker Tournament scene.

If they are planning a big series in April.

They have enough time in between to run a mid size guarantee Saturday Tournament to create interest as trial Balloon.

Like 100k Guaranteed Saturday one day Tournament.

I am headed back east likely next summer, so I hope something gets going before long. I have been in Minnesota the last 3 years and the tournament scene out here is really great. They doo charge a chunky rake, and another factor cash games are $100 SL due to state law. That said, the local casino's pre-covid ran big guarantees every month plus the MSPT was running every couple months.

I saw the MGM was going to run a East Coast Poker Tour in 2020, so hopefully they fire that back up? Otherwise, the MSPT needs to start coming east.

Maryland Live has the MD State Poker Champ. Series starting Jan 5, 2022
MGM National Harbor has Potomac Winter Poker Open starting somewhere around Feb 10, 2022.

Enjoy.

Thx Sir


https://maryland.livecasinohotel.com...mpionship.ashx

I am guessing it has to do with staffing. They want to keep their existing dealers happy. I played recently at a NE room, and someone asked when there would be tournaments. The very experienced dealer I believe said he hopes they never come back. He literally makes half of what he does from cash game tips.

....which begs the question: should we tip less when playing cash? #ducksForCover

This is a constant debate. The fact of the matter is the vast majority of tournament players tip nothing since for some reason it has become the norm that tournament players only tip if they win anything. And the winning players who do tip, even if they are generous, cannot make up for the loss of 85% or more of the player pool contributing next to nothing. Dealer add-ons in some events help this issue, but it's still imbalanced between tournaments and cash, making dealers not want to deal tournaments.

I don't know exactly what dealers typically make dealing cash, and it obviously varies... but if dealers can make something on the order $20-$25/hr on top of their meager salary, I think that's reasonable.

If poker rooms could get tourney players to tip even $2/hour for the time they are playing, through some sort of system, then the disparity between tourney and cash earnings for dealers would be largely eliminated and we might see more tourneys.